Carbon Fiber slides? Yea or Nay?

[aasavickas]

Seems like a cool idea.

The slides are supposed to be extremely light which is good for those who like a light slide. I've played light traditional slides, usually made lighter using smaller sleeves or more nickel on the outside slide. The lightness does not really make a difference to me. I mostly care that the thing is smooth so that small intonation adjustments don't upset the chops. The traditional lightweight slide I played for a while seemed to break up(sound got a little edgy) when played loud, which is probably good in certain jazz/latin settings. I didn't care for it. On my other small bores, I have better control over the sound at volume. I can adjust the air to get the sound I want(big full round vs edgy and aggressive)at whatever volume I need. The light slide just seemed to get too edgy too quick and too stubbornly aggressive for my tastes.

Do the carbon slides have the same effect, i.e. getting edgy at louder dynamics?

What is the effect on the overall sound quality at different volumes?

Does the slide tend to change the resonance by favoring certain overtones over others? In other words, darker or brighter than traditional slides?

[Jgittleson]

I fitted a bulter outer on a bach 50 thayer horn. If there was a difference on sound neither the owner of the horn nor myself heard it. Its a very different feel than metal. Its smooth, but my brain didnt process it that way while playing, because there its zero momentum to experience the smoothness (if that males sense). I liked it for sure, but it would take getting used to.

[timothy42b]

The light slide just seemed to get too edgy too quick and too stubbornly aggressive for my tastes.

I've heard that from other people, but I always wonder if it's mostly an effect of the feedback off the slide. What we hear in the "near field" may be undetectable in the room acoustics.

[TheSheriff]

Seems like a cool idea.

The slides are supposed to be extremely light which is good for those who like a light slide. I've played light traditional slides, usually made lighter using smaller sleeves or more nickel on the outside slide. The lightness does not really make a difference to me. I mostly care that the thing is smooth so that small intonation adjustments don't upset the chops. The traditional lightweight slide I played for a while seemed to break up(sound got a little edgy) when played loud, which is probably good in certain jazz/latin settings. I didn't care for it. On my other small bores, I have better control over the sound at volume. I can adjust the air to get the sound I want(big full round vs edgy and aggressive)at whatever volume I need. The light slide just seemed to get too edgy too quick and too stubbornly aggressive for my tastes.

Do the carbon slides have the same effect, i.e. getting edgy at louder dynamics?

What is the effect on the overall sound quality at different volumes?

Does the slide tend to change the resonance by favoring certain overtones over others? In other words, darker or brighter than traditional slides?

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I'm not a fan of carbon slides. They change the sound too much for my taste. It's not a brass sound. Who'd a thunk?! I find them gimmicky and they made the horn sound like a P-bone. No thanks. Yup, SEEMS like a cool idea, but it ain't as far as I am concerned.

As far as your traditional lightweight slide breaking up in the sound department? Hell, that could be any number of things, including the weight of the bell, bell material, leadpipe, mouthpiece, overall design of the instrument, how you blow, your concept, and sure, maybe the slide and the material it was made from.

So...................Nay!!

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[harrisonreed]

Yeah, it's right up there with screw bell trombones as an unnecessary thing to do to your trombone

[TheSheriff]

Yeah, it's right up there with screw bell trombones as an unnecessary thing to do to your trombone

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Ok...............

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[aasavickas]

Yup Harrison. I’m interested but skeptical of some of the new equipment options but far too cheap to actually buy one to find out. Which explains throwing out questions to the brass hive mind.

With musicians so susesptible to snake oil and so many willing to sell it, it is hard not to be skeptical. But every good idea was once new so I’m still curious.

I suspect that the slide will make the horn sound a little bit like a pbone. It plays and sounds sorta like a trombone but the traditional brass resonance just isn’t there.

[timothy42b]

The original carbon fiber slides (made by Jimmie Dell back in 70s or so?) were lauded for their robustness. To me that seems a significant advantage especially if you play in crowded venues or around clumsy people. (I'm sure none of us qualify as clumsy. Then on the other hand...) That they were light and fast was just an extra.

The claim was that they were somewhat dull sounding. I never had a chance to try one. On the old forum someone did some A/B testing and the recordings were hard to tell apart. Knowing how they were made (prepeg sleeves) I would suspect some porosity, and that has probably been engineered out by now.

[Reedman1]

Here's an A/B comparison of carbon fiber to brass slides.

[timothy42b]

I'll watch it later when I can, on big speakers.

Some of us play in recital halls like that one, or a sound booth.

A lot of people play in noisy venues with a deaf guy on the sound board and ear plugs in. I have trouble figuring you can hear any difference in that kind of real world playing. Or, if you're a mike player, then all bets are off.

[hyperbolica]

@Reedman1, thanks for the real comparison. I can hear a slight difference, but probably only because I can also see what you're using. The brass slide sounds a little brighter, and more of the sound we are used to hearing from a trombone. The difference was slight, and if you weren't playing them back to back, I certainly wouldn't have complained or probably even noticed.

Is the difference between ease of use and maintenance that much better? I would guess there's another level of difference between entire CF outer slide including crook, and just CF outer straight tubes. Non-metallic slides probably have their best application in student horns where repeatedly repairing abused slides I'm sure gets to be old.

[RJMason]

I own a carbon fiber slide for my Conn 6H

When I first tried it I liked it. Then I hated it...I felt it sounded like a pBone. But to me this ended up being feedback and not what the mic or audience heard. After disliking the sound and thinking I wasted money, I used the slide on a session in LA in addition to the original slide in attempts to create a different sound, I was doubling four different trombone parts.

On the recording however, they sounded identical and started to phase a bit. So that strategy didn’t work and I used my Bach 36B for the different sound. At that time I started to enjoy the benefits of a light slide and realized I needed to reasses the feedback. That became a song often played during NFL commercials last season.

Honestly, there is a trade off as with all options on a horn. I’ve played incredibly loud with brass bands and felt and sounded softer than the other trombonists with brass slides. This causes me to overblow and I don’t like that feeling at all! It doesn’t resonate the same way and I wouldn’t recommend it for loud unmiced playing unless you are in close quarters or marching and don’t want your slide to get damaged.

I’ve played besides the great Greg Boyer with a fully CF daCarbo horn and while he played incredibly, if he was off mic it was not nearly as loud volume wise playing over a fully amplified band as my Bach off mic on a jam session.

If you are playing with a close mic or clip-on it is great. I used the carbon fiber slide exclusively on a tour last year and the trombone sounded great, the slide was fast and durable. I started doing some shows with Blood, Sweat & Tears last month and the Butler slide has definitely helped me execute those crazy lines cleanly, but I am using a clip on mic for that.

Not all equipment works for everyone, and different players have different needs musically and logistically. Screw bells and carbon fiber slides work for me for a good amount of situations, but not all. Were lucky that trombones are so affordable relative to other instruments, I can go back to a classic horn combination if desired!

[Pre59]

Seeing the YouTube video, I listened to it with my eyes closed and got the tone differences right away. Rather like carbon fibre guitars and basses, one of which I used for a long time, they fit in specific genres but aren't so universal.

[timothy42b]

Ah.

Now I've had a chance to listen through a decent stereo and speakers.

There is no venue I play in where the carbon slide would be a limitation. In most of the recordings I've heard with carbon slides, the style has been jazz rather than classical, and the tone requirements are different. Here he's doing classical style with full tone, and I don't hear any problem.

I'm not sure if I could tell any difference. Certainly it's not "pBone like." I thought maybe on the last excerpt the carbon slide was a little brighter than the brass, I preferred it. But the difference was slight and may have been in my mind, or even played slightly differently.

[baileyman]

I would have to do an A/B comparison in a big band section to hear a difference. I heard nothing in the recording. Thanks for the effort, though!

[Jgittleson]

I think its worth mentioning how well made Davids slides are. Out of curiousity i took a caliper to one while i was aligning the inner to it. From top to bottom is was off by .0005". For the non engineers/machinists out there. Even with a jig, to hit that number essentially by hand is ridiculous.

[Leanit]

You can't deny the lightness of carbon slides is amazing. Almost distracting until you get used to it. I don't love the sound enough to go that route.

[tskeldon]

The take away then is that if you can't hear a difference, in either tone or proficiency of execution, it's not making a difference in playability that matters; regardless of how nimble, light or fast the slide is. That you 'feel' a difference (which I think is not debated) in your arm (which is more than up to the simple task of moving a slide of any weight) is just as irrelevant (to performance) as thinking you hear a difference, because that feeling is apparently not manifesting itself in your performance; otherwise you would hear evidence of additional facility in cleaner, more rhythmically coherent lines, and no one has claimed that. That being the case, the only advantage is that carbon fiber slides don't dent.

[hyperbolica]

... the only advantage is that carbon fiber slides don't dent.

There is the other aspect of people who have injuries of some sort. If a cf slide means I can play 15 minutes instead of 3 minutes, or it means I can keep playing instead of retiring, then it's a big advantage.

[Reedman1]

I have played a Butler outer slide on my 2B for a little over a year. It is wonderfully light and easy to play. I found little or no difference in timbre or volume between the Butler outer and the original metal outer; I sometimes feel that perhaps I have to articulate a little harder on the Butler slide. Lately I’ve been playing more on my XO 1632, and I find that lightweight metal outer slide comparatively heavy. I like the XO because I get a fuller sound; it has nothing to do with the Butler slide.
The Butler slide is VERY low maintenance and VERY sturdy in addition to being extremely light. And the lightness really is an advantage for people with injuries or musculoskeletal issues.

[quiethorn]

For people with high acidity who are tired of using leather wraps or things to not eat through their slides, carbon fiber is a nice option (for the right hand, at least).

But overall, if there really is a sound difference, wouldn't it be more pronounced as you move to farther positions since more of the outer slide is part of the air column the farther out you go? Or are we saying the the lighter mass of the slide itself has an effect even when it's in first position?

[ithinknot]

But overall, if there really is a sound difference, wouldn't it be more pronounced as you move to farther positions since more of the outer slide is part of the air column the farther out you go? Or are we saying the the lighter mass of the slide itself has an effect even when it's in first position?

We already know slide mass makes a difference - heavier/lighter tubing, removing oversleeves etc all change response.

We don't expect brass and nickel slides to feel or sound exactly the same.

I think the hope/expectation/marketing that CF should sound identical is unrealistic; the question should just be whether the sound is musically satisfying or desirable in its own terms.

[Posaunus]

We already know slide mass makes a difference - heavier/lighter tubing, removing oversleeves etc all change response.

We don't expect brass and nickel slides to feel or sound exactly the same.

I think the hope/expectation/marketing that CF should sound identical is unrealistic; the question should just be whether the sound is musically satisfying or desirable in its own terms.

Yup.

• Strads sound different from Amatis sound different from Guarneris

• Steinways sound different from Bösendorfers sound different from Faziolis

• Bachs sound different from Conns sound different from Shires sound different from Edwards

• Fenders sound different from Gibsons sound different from Taylors sound different from Martins

Music is a big world, with room for lots of satisfying variety.

Keep on innovating and enjoying!

[quiethorn]

We already know slide mass makes a difference - heavier/lighter tubing, removing oversleeves etc all change response.

We don't expect brass and nickel slides to feel or sound exactly the same.

I think the hope/expectation/marketing that CF should sound identical is unrealistic; the question should just be whether the sound is musically satisfying or desirable in its own terms.

Yup.

• Strads sound different from Amatis sound different from Guarneris

• Steinways sound different from Bösendorfers sound different from Faziolis

• Bachs sound different from Conns sound different from Shires sound different from Edwards

• Fenders sound different from Gibsons sound different from Taylors sound different from Martins

Music is a big world, with room for lots of satisfying variety.

Keep on innovating and enjoying!

...and carbon fiber slides sound different than pBone slides.

[baileyman]

Seems the light slide may make an actual difference depending on your shift style.

The major weight to move is the arm itself. The smallest weight to move is the fingers. The mass of a slide is small compared to the pounds of an arm. Seems if you are an Alessi full arm 1-0 digital style shifter a light slide would make no difference. If you are a full floppy JJ or Kenny Shroyer shifter, then the momentum of a light slide on the fingers could be a big difference.

[timothy42b]

If you are a full floppy JJ or Kenny Shroyer shifter, then the momentum of a light slide on the fingers could be a big difference.

Also if your choice of positions requires frequent reversal of direction, the effect of both arm and slide weight would be increased.

[Driswood]

I've never had the opportunity to use one.

But two guys who added the outer slide to their rigs love them.

Joe Jackson, former lead bone with The Airmen of Note, on his Williams 6

Sam Woodhead, principal trombone with US Army Band "Pershing's Own" on his Shires

They both love them, and they're not hacks. They know what they are talking about.

Joe's comments http://butlertrombones.com/?page_id=269