old King trombone series

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DutchGuy
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old King trombone series

Post by DutchGuy »

I've only been playing for about 1.5 years, and went looking for a larger trombone recently.

After some advise from you guys and local trombonists I purchased my first King trombone, a 4b Sonorous. According to most people, this one is 'better' than the currently produced 2104.
Is this true for the whole line of instruments? So from the 2b to the 6/7/8 (don't know how far they go?)

I really like the horn, and my inner collector want's to kinda have more of the same. So I have some questions for you guys:

Can someone complete and/or correct the whole list for me? I don't really know where to find the remaining ones.
(is there a 1B?) 2B Liberty, 3B Concert, 4B Sonorous, 5B Symphony, 6B Duo-Gravis , ???

In general, are all of these horns considered to be superior to the 210x series produced today?
And if so, any specific things to look out for? Or stay away from?
I found some called 'silver sonic' and similar with a sterling silver bell (I think?), but are these still part of that series, or is that a different one?

Thanks!
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Geordie
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by Geordie »

There is also 3B+. Straight version and trigger version. .525 bore and very versatile.
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ObsessedTrombonist333
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by ObsessedTrombonist333 »

Actually, the newest series was renamed the “Legend” Series and they rid them of the 210X part, if I’m not mistaken. In any case, I have a 3B Silversonic that I absolutely adore playing, so at least personally I think the new horns are amazing. The “Silversonics” are the sterling-silver-bell versions of all of those, however there did exist earlier than those a “Silver-Tone” 2B I believe. There’s also a straight 2B+, to add to the line-up with a .500” bore.
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Vegastokc
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by Vegastokc »

Dutch, here is a pretty cool website you may want check out regarding older Kings:
http://www.hnwhite.com/
Personally, I am a sucker for old and antique horns. I find the workmanship and history fascinating.
Right now, my daily driver is a 1941 King (H.N. White) 2B that I have owned for 25 yrs.
I have always been a big fan of Kings of every era.
Played a 1980 King 606 in HS and college. Great for marching and jazz, as well as concert/symphonic.
Bought my daughter a 1991 King 606 when she started playing in 6th grade a few years ago.
There is always debate on whether newer, more mass produced horns are "better" or "worse".
(For King that would be UMI/Conn-Selmer era.)
There are many great new horns out there as well as fantastic older ones.
This may be over simplifying, but it always comes down on whether you like what you are playing regardless of what name is on it.
Of course, King is a good place to start. :biggrin:
I see you have a Courtois and an Olds. You may find that the Kings tend to be a little brighter than both of those. But still easy to blend in ensemble.
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BGuttman
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by BGuttman »

The "B" horns ran from 2 to 8. 7B and 8B did not have names (they were introduced later).

There are two intermediate sizes called "Plus": 2B+ and 3B+. There is also a single bore 2B: the original Liberty from the early 1930s and the Jiggs 2B. The Liberty was the same size as the small slide tube of the 2B, while the Jiggs is a straight 0.495" bore.

Note that 3B, 4B, and 5B were introduced in the 1950s, 6B in the 1960s 7B and 8B introduced in the 1970s.

There was an earlier large bore with F called Symphony which was a dual bore 0.536"/0.547" (standard shank mouthpiece). It had a 14xx number of 1480 (1485 in Sterling Silver). Kings had model numbers in the 14xx range before the 21xx range.

hnwhite.com concentrateson Kings up to the sale to Seeburg around 1965.

Enjoy your 4B. They are great horns.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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DutchGuy
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by DutchGuy »

So many different horns!
What's your opinion on these '+' horns? Seems kind of redundant if the 2 3 and 4 are already excellent horns.

For now I'll be looking for the Liberty and Concert, if I can find them for an acceptable price I'll try to get silversonic one. Then I can sell the other non-king horns. I'm completely sold on King now :)
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BGuttman
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by BGuttman »

If you prefer a horn with 0.500" bore (12.7 mm) or 0.525'"bore (13.25 mm) then the "+" horns are the way to go. They filled two holes in the King line that have existed for years.

Warning: SilverSonics or Silvertones are relatively rare and VERY expensive. At one time the SilverSonic had about a 500 Euro premioum, but now it's much more.
Bruce Guttman
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ExZacLee
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by ExZacLee »

It helps to mention the single bore Liberty was never designated as a "2B" - it was just called a "Liberty". The term Liberty was also used on trumpets and cornets, maybe saxophones as well?

The 2B Liberty was a dual bore version of the Liberty - 2B stood for "dual bore".

Of course, as with all handmade stuff, there were occasionally Liberties that slipped out with a dual bore slide, and the occasional 2B that didn't... you hear of these from time to time.

After that, they decided to keep the "XB" naming convention - 3B followed as a .508, 4B (sonorous?) and 5B (symphony?) is a .547 with different bell sizes (but had different bores at different times - read the literature for specs and timeline) and 6B-8B were bass bones. There was also a lesser known 2B, a 2B that was a large dual bore with a large bell (kind of like the older symphony?) - I've seen a couple of these but they're rare as hens teeth to quote some of my favorite old forumites. 2B+ (.500) and 3B+ (.525) came later, i think the 80's - pretty sure Chuck Ward's 2B was made in the 80's anyway, and the 3B+ w/F I used to have was either a late 80's or early 90's horn according to the serial #.
SirJohn
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by SirJohn »

I am about as far an expert as they come, but from research I have done to get myself up to speed in the trombone world, I did find that King started the 210x model designations in 1980 and it continued up until this just recent update, so to exclude all 210x horns is basically excluding 35+ years worth of trombones. Good and bad horns probably exist in all eras, maybe a few more outstanding ones in earlier periods, but probably best to still try 210x models than to just ignore them.
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ExZacLee
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by ExZacLee »

Most (maybe not all though?) of the 2XXX horns are just the modern versions of older 2B/3B/4B etc.... and its variants - they're not different in any major respects (bore size, etc...) although in "minor" respects some lead pipe (and possibly assembly) changes made some of them less desirable. Doesn't necessarily mean the 80's horns "sucked" per se, I like them! Some of them don't play the same as their vintage counterparts, maybe because of these changes - namely the switch from a one piece leadpipe to a two piece leadpipe (so I've been told, I'm not sure exactly when the leadpipe change occurred - I think it was mid 80's but ask a repair guy - they'll know better than I.

2102 - 2B
2115 - 2B+
2103 - 3B
2125 - 3B+
2104 - 4B
etc., etc., etc...
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ExZacLee
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by ExZacLee »

ExZacLee wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:48 pm Most (maybe not all though?) of the 2XXX horns are just the modern versions of older 2B/3B/4B etc.... and its variants - they're not different in any major respects (bore size, etc...) although in "minor" respects some lead pipe (and possibly assembly) changes made some of them less desirable. Doesn't necessarily mean the 80's horns "sucked" per se, I like them! Some of them don't play the same as their vintage counterparts, maybe because of these changes - namely the switch from a one piece leadpipe to a two piece leadpipe (so I've been told, I'm not sure exactly when the leadpipe change occurred - I think it was mid 80's but ask a repair guy - they'll know better than I.

2102 - 2B
2115 - 2B+
2103 - 3B
2125 - 3B+
2104 - 4B
etc., etc., etc...
A few years ago (around 2010 I think?) the Kings I tried at trade shows seemed very "tight" compared to the 50's and 60's kings I have played my whole life. Some of this may be attributable to the leadpipe change but much of it may have been an assembly issue, or maybe just the fact that the sales reps weren't setting up the horns properly. I'll never understand that - you're setting up brass at a trade show and you don't take the few minutes it takes to lube up the damn horn. A crappy slide will lose you more sales than anything...
LarryPrestonRoberson
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by LarryPrestonRoberson »

So, was there ever a 5B?
pompatus
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by pompatus »

LarryPrestonRoberson wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:46 pm So, was there ever a 5B?
The 5B (2105F) was a .547 bore with 9” bell and F-attachment.
LarryPrestonRoberson
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by LarryPrestonRoberson »

pompatus wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:04 pm
LarryPrestonRoberson wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:46 pm So, was there ever a 5B?
The 5B (2105F) was a .547 bore with 9” bell and F-attachment.
Okay, thanks. Is the main difference between the 4BF/Sonorous and 5B, the bell size—8.5” vs. 9”?
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BGuttman
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by BGuttman »

LarryPrestonRoberson wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:51 pm
pompatus wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:04 pm The 5B (2105F) was a .547 bore with 9” bell and F-attachment.
Okay, thanks. Is the main difference between the 4BF/Sonorous and 5B, the bell size—8.5” vs. 9”?
There were actually 2 5B's. The older one was a dual bore 0.536"/0.547" and used a regular shank mouthpiece. The newer one basically was a 4B with a different bell (9 inch instead of 8.5") and used the same slide as the 4B.

Regardless of date, the 5B was usually called Symphony while the 4B was called Sonorous. At one point the Symphony was called 2B because of its dual bore (just to make things more confusing).
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JohnL
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Re: old King trombone series

Post by JohnL »

BGuttman wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:03 pmThere were actually 2 5B's. The older one was a dual bore 0.536"/0.547" and used a regular shank mouthpiece. The newer one basically was a 4B with a different bell (9 inch instead of 8.5") and used the same slide as the 4B.
1480's and 1485's both take large-shank mouthpieces. King did a little trickery to make it work with a .536" upper (similar to a .525" horn with a large-shank receiver). I have a couple 1485's from the late 1940's, and I used to play next to a guy who had one made before WWII. King taper, but definitely large shank.

In the beginning, there was the King Symphony model. The model 1410 was a straight tenor, the model 1480 had an f-attachment. With a sterling bell, the models were 1460 and 1485. King made various running changes to the design, and eventually dropped the 1410/1460 from the lineup, but the 1480/1485 remained in the catalog at least into the early 1970's. For the last few years of production, it was also referred to as the 5B, likely to be consistent with the rest of King's pro trombones (curiously, some early ones are actually marked "2B", apparently referring to their dual-bore slide).

Sometime in the 1970's, the 1480 was dropped and a new 5B appeared, one that was based on the 4BF, but with the old Symphony bell. It should be noted that the Symphony/5B bell is not simply a 4B bell with a larger flare - it's larger all the way through, including the tuning slide.

Even though the Symphony model and the 5B are long gone from the Conn-Selmer catalog, they still use the bell on the 88HKO.

If I were asked to describe the difference between the two 5B's, I'd say that the older model is more of a small bass trombone, while the newer one is more of a extra-large tenor.
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