Mini-Bass bone demo

[peteedwards]

I recorded a short demo video of my mini-bass. Please forgive the low audio level and my mumbling. I am not known as a gifted public speaker.



a thread on this horn exists in the TTF archive here: https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, this thing makes sense to me. The goal is to make a smaller bass trombone, this is a great way to do it. You could just pick this up and play it, most of it is familiar. It's like a single valve bass, You can still get low C and B, and C on the staff and F under the staff are where you're used to them being.

Pete, if you get bored with it, I'd give it a good home.

[ShermanKNTO]

Nice! So If I'm thinking correctly, this is like a Bass version of the Yamaha YSL-350C? The ascending valve is something I always wanted to try, but it only came on the 350C (small shank )horn. Seems like this horn would be ideal for travel, both smaller and lighter.

[BGuttman]

Maybe we can have a "shootout" between the C bass and the Db bass!

Sounds really nice.

Maybe we need C horns like the trumpet players do for orchestra. Works much better with all those sharp keys.

[peteedwards]

Nice! So If I'm thinking correctly, this is like a Bass version of the Yamaha YSL-350C? The ascending valve is something I always wanted to try, but it only came on the 350C (small shank )horn. Seems like this horn would be ideal for travel, both smaller and lighter.

Yes, the 350C was what gave me the idea for this horn.

[peteedwards]

Maybe we can have a "shootout" between the C bass and the Db bass!

Sounds really nice.

Maybe we need C horns like the trumpet players do for orchestra. Works much better with all those sharp keys.

it's not really in C, or at least I don't think of it that way while playing. Everything is played on the Bb side, I only use the ascending valve for low C & B, alternates, and trills. To my ears the C side sounds a bit wonky in the mid & upper register. Works great for the pedals though.

[ShermanKNTO]

... To my ears the C side sounds a bit wonky in the mid & upper register. Works great for the pedals though.

Maybe the reason for that because the partials are different from "normal/regular", or maybe it could be the more conical bell (no bell tuning) gives a different response. (like how a dual bore slide or TIS slide's partials give a different response).

Great idea, keep it going!

[Finetales]

As I mentioned in the TTF thread, the slide position possibilities for an instrument in this tuning are really remarkable. You get Bb positions, C positions (so low C and B as pedals at the top of the slide, as well as G3 and C4 in 1st), F positions, and flat G positions. So basically everything good about both G and Bollinger tuning (minus the D3 in 1st) AND a whole new position set that gets rid of any problems with low C and B. For those who like double pedal Bb in open 2nd rather than 7th with both triggers, you could also do that trick with the C and B. Can you imagine how nice high G and above would be on the C side too? As far as I'm concerned the only disadvantage with in an instrument in this tuning is no low D and Db in 1st and 2nd, but I don't think that's too much of a loss (I almost never play them up there on my indy).

As if that wasn't enough with a 6-position slide, the Thein instrument with this tuning has a full 7-position (in Bb) slide which allows for 8 positions when in C (according to them anyway). But this instrument has the advantages of being compact for flights/tight gig spaces and the ability to swap slides and turn it into a non-ascending C/G/Ab bass trombone, which is so awesome. I love everything about this.

[hornbuilder]

This horn still sounds like a bass trombone because it is still in Bb! Altering the length of tube that is producing the note changes the sound because of the overtone structure of that note. In this instance, the low C and B "will" sound different to a "regular" Bb horn because they are pedals, not "long tube" notes with their closer overtone structure. You cannot change acoustics!!

I've been wanting to do this very thing for some years. I think it has potential.

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, this may not be the thing for dedicated bass bone players who are happy with huge equipment, but for doublers or folks who want a smaller bass that still mostly plays like a bass, I think this is great. People traveling who can get by without a full-on bass bone would also benefit.

I think it's a benefit to have the low C sound like a pedal note because that's a money note, and when you play it with two triggers down, it can sound weak. I could do without the screw bell, but maybe its there to help with balance.

I love the idea that it can mostly be played like a single valve bass, and I hadn't thought of the G~ish tuning benefit. That's very cool.

It's just a half step, but to me, the Bb/C is a more practical idea than the Db. Plus, it seems like an idea that already has some traction.

[BGuttman]

I am still looking at the orchestral side of things. Here you are playing with a C tuba and often C trumpets. The C trombone would have a compatible set of overtones.

For Band, where there is a predominance of Bb instruments I prefer a Bb instrument. Same goes for Jazz Band.

[peteedwards]

Yeah, this may not be the thing for dedicated bass bone players who are happy with huge equipment, but for doublers or folks who want a smaller bass that still mostly plays like a bass, I think this is great. People traveling who can get by without a full-on bass bone would also benefit.

I think it's a benefit to have the low C sound like a pedal note because that's a money note, and when you play it with two triggers down, it can sound weak. I could do without the screw bell, but maybe its there to help with balance.

Yes I think for 95% of literature, a "smaller" bass is way more appropriate than to play everything on a horn designed for playing Bruckner symphonies. I have a big horn (King 8B frankenbass) and its way harder to play light on that horn than it is to play big on this one. When I use a larger lead pipe I can get a pretty huge sound out of it.
The pedal tone sound of C & B took some getting used to, but now I think the change in sound between pedal C & Db is less drastic than the change between pedal Bb & B on a normal bass.

[Jgittleson]

Hey guys dont be talkin smack about my Db horn

It sounds good, but since its just a Bb horn with some tubing relocated, its not going to sound any different. In my opinion, losing a position is a deal breaker. It would have been easy enough to do exactly what you did but keep 7th, in which case it would have more utility. Nice design though!

[whitbey]

Great horn!!!

I had my 2nd valve changed from E to C back in the late 70's. Since then I have thought about a horn like yours. Good work!

[peteedwards]

Hey guys dont be talkin smack about my Db horn

It sounds good, but since its just a Bb horn with some tubing relocated, its not going to sound any different. In my opinion, losing a position is a deal breaker. It would have been easy enough to do exactly what you did but keep 7th, in which case it would have more utility. Nice design though!

No smack, I think these are 2 different designs for 2 different purposes. My goal was for it to not sound any different, but resolve the common issues of weight and size.
As for 7th position, I for one (and I suspect many others) hardly ever used it anyway, and after a year playing this horn, find I don't miss it at all. This design makes the slide lighter and allows me to preserve the cylindrical/conical ratio of a normal bass. Plus it makes it really well balanced.

[ghmerrill]

As for 7th position, I for one (and I suspect many others) hardly ever used it anyway, and after a year playing this horn, find I don't miss it at all.

This will probably amount to a confession of bad technique, but it may expose a demographic some haven't thought of ...

I NEVER use 7th position, and RARELY use 6th. There are two reasons for this.

The first is that I'm totally self-taught on trombone (and more generally, brass), and picked up the double valve indy bass as my first trombone. Much later, I got an Olds Standard as a straight horn to have some fun with, but I rarely play it. When I started with the bass, I just didn't see much sense in using positions that were in the next county if I could avoid that. I know the arguments in favor of the open horn vs. valve positions, and I acknowledge them, but I think that in large part they're not as compelling as many people do. Since I didn't learn bass trombone in the traditional way (straight tenor > tenor with F attachment > double valve bass), I also never had the technique habits that "real trombonists" develop. Also, never had the skills those habits provide. And certainly there are situations when you HAVE to use those far positions (some runs and glisses, etc.).

But a big part of the reason I avoid 6th and 7th positions is that for some years I've had significant shoulder arthritis. This deterred me from playing trombone for a couple of decades, and I made a conscious decision to go with valved instruments. But I love trombone, and a few years ago decided to just bite the bullet and go for it. The double valve indy bass allows me to do that, while playing my little straight horn for very long starts to hurt (literally) quite a bit. So a double valve bass with good ergonomics (including the balance of the instrument) can open up the bass trombone possibility to a group of people who otherwise might find it impossible or unpleasant to play -- and this would include younger players and those of smaller stature.

[baileyman]

I do not play bass (though I have one), but on seeing the 350C I almost immediately thought about how bass guys complain about low C and B and then that such a design in bass might alleviate the issues. I happy to see that idea had validity! Great job!

[Jgittleson]

Hey guys dont be talkin smack about my Db horn

It sounds good, but since its just a Bb horn with some tubing relocated, its not going to sound any different. In my opinion, losing a position is a deal breaker. It would have been easy enough to do exactly what you did but keep 7th, in which case it would have more utility. Nice design though!

No smack, I think these are 2 different designs for 2 different purposes. My goal was for it to not sound any different, but resolve the common issues of weight and size.
As for 7th position, I for one (and I suspect many others) hardly ever used it anyway, and after a year playing this horn, find I don't miss it at all. This design makes the slide lighter and allows me to preserve the cylindrical/conical ratio of a normal bass. Plus it makes it really well balanced.

I was kidding Pete. I think any sensible person can agree, right and wrong are entirely relative, its really what horn is right or wrong for you. Unless you're physically behind the mouthpiece, all the videos in the world won't tell you what you need to know about a particular horn.

20 years ago i liked huge, heavy, horns, with thayers. Why? Because i was a kid and thats what i saw the big boys playing. Now, i go by how i sound on a particular setup. I used to cringe at the thought of dependent valves. I mean, why oh why would someone want that? Now, I'm building horns for myself with them.

Ill tell you my favorite thing though, when someone develops this strong negative opinion about something, then, they try it, and have to backpedal all the things they said.

[peteedwards]

one thing I've "discovered" lately is that B's & E's can be played in dead-on 4th position on the bG side so that kinda makes up for no 7th position. coming from playing dependent for many years, I'm starting to "get" what all the fuss of indys is about.