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Benge 175F

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:13 pm
by TimBrass
All info and thoughts on this trombone are appreciated.
As I’m unable to find info....

Thanks for your input!

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:21 pm
by BGuttman
These were made by King in the 1980s intended to be a more "orchestral" horn than the regular "B" series.

The 175 is Medium Bore (takes a standard shank mouthpiece) with an open wrap F-attachment.

100% Pro horn. Great general purpose instrument.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:26 pm
by hyperbolica
I had one and played it up against my Conn 79h. the 175 is very similar to the 79h, but even more rare. I would say it's maybe a little more agile - light on its feet - than the reference horn for 525 bore, the Bach 36b. The 36b is possibly more orchestral sounding, and the 175f is possibly more aimed at, say, concert band, chamber music(???), solos, or lighter playing.

The big things that distinguish the 175f (from a 79h or 36b)are:
1)The valve is probably better on the 175.
2)The wrap is an open wrap (from the point of view that it won't trap any water, other people who classify a wrap by its minimum bend radius may have a different opinion).
3)The bell on the 175f is gold brass.
4)Somewhat lighter than the 36b.
5)It's a King, so it's going to have the single radius crook, and sound possibly a little brighter than other similar horns.
6)I think (but don't remember clearly) that the 175 slide was narrower than the 79h or 36b.

I really liked the 175f that I had, but it was so similar to my 79h that I sold it, and kept the 79h. My 79h has a thin rose bell 7.75" diameter taken from a 1950s 78h, so it's a little different from a stock 79h (8" yellow bell).

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:09 am
by TimBrass
Could anyone comment on the differences between the Benge 175F and a King3BF?

Thanks for all the input so far!

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:15 am
by BGuttman
Benge 175F is a true Medium Bore (0.525") while the 3B-F is a little smaller (0.508" bore).

3B-F has thumb over bell brace (a problem for some) while the 175F has a Conn-style trigger arrangement.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:21 am
by TimBrass
Could you also comment on the differences in sound?

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:42 am
by BGuttman
That's much tougher. The sound you get is a combination of the design of the horn and what it has endured for the past umpteen years.

In general I'd say a Benge 175 will sound a little more "symphonic" than a 3B-F. That said, either one works for a wide variety of conditions.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:30 pm
by imsevimse
The Benge is the best of King and Conn. The Benge 175f is a great .525 horn. The valve works just like a Conn, which I think is better than the King solution. The sound is closer to a King than a Conn.

If I compare all the .525-ish horns I have and make a list from most symphonic to least symphonic.

The first would be my Bach 36BO which blend really well with other larger horns like a Bach 42 or a Conn 88h. The Bach 36BO is followed by a dual bore .500/.530 Kanstul 760 and a dual bore .500/.525 Yamaha 356R. The Kanstul is Bach like and the Yamaha more Conn like (to me) Both plays bigger than you would think. After those I place the Elkhart Conn 79h and last the Benge 175f. The Benge would be the least symphonic .525-ish horn I have. It is a tad more symphonic than the King 3b which I would not count as a symphonic horn at all. It is a .508 horn that in my hands is to small to second a Bach 42 or a Conn 88h in a symphonic situation. All the others could due with the right mouthpiece.

/Tom

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 am
by TimBrass
Could use your advise 1 more time as I have 2 options left.

1. King 3BF with lacquer wear (1982) slide 9/10 750 Euro (875 USD)
2. Benge 175F with lacquer wear, slide 8.5/10 675 euro (800 USD)

The instrument will be mostly used in Pop / rock settings.

What would you buy?

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am
by BGuttman
Either one will work. I think I might go for the 3B-F, all things being equal.

Again, condition trumps anything else. Try to play it if you can.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:33 am
by imsevimse
TimBrass wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 am Could use your advise 1 more time as I have 2 options left.

1. King 3BF with lacquer wear (1982) slide 9/10 750 Euro (875 USD)
2. Benge 175F with lacquer wear, slide 8.5/10 675 euro (800 USD)

The instrument will be mostly used in Pop / rock settings.

What would you buy?
King 3b/f because of the context.

/Tom

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:05 am
by hyperbolica
TimBrass wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 am 1. King 3BF with lacquer wear (1982) slide 9/10 750 Euro (875 USD)
2. Benge 175F with lacquer wear, slide 8.5/10 675 euro (800 USD)

The instrument will be mostly used in Pop / rock settings.
Yeah, I agree. For pop, I'd probably go with the 3bf, although overall I prefer the Benge. Better idea to play the horns, if you can.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:32 pm
by TimBrass
Almost ready to bite the bullet. Things changed a bit.

King 875 USD
Benge 700 USD (price drop)

I’m normally a euphonium player used to playing with a lot of air. Would the bore make a difference? .508 of the vs the .525 of the Benge? Which one of the 2 would have a higher selling price if I’d like to sell it of after a few years?
My experience on trombone brands is very limited. I consider myself a good euphonium player though. Best question would be: which of the 2 trombones would be best in the long run?

Just want to make sure I’m making the right desicion here....

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:39 pm
by BGuttman
All things being equal, the King will have a higher resale price.

You may find the Medium Bore Benge able to take more air than the smaller King. But it's a small difference. You may be well served to learn to play a smaller bore with less air. I usually refer to small bores as "finesse" horns and large bores as "muscle" horns.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:01 pm
by hyperbolica
TimBrass wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:32 pm Almost ready to bite the bullet. Things changed a bit.

King 875 USD
Benge 700 USD (price drop)

I’m normally a euphonium player used to playing with a lot of air. Would the bore make a difference? .508 of the vs the .525 of the Benge? Which one of the 2 would have a higher selling price if I’d like to sell it of after a few years?
My experience on trombone brands is very limited. I consider myself a good euphonium player though. Best question would be: which of the 2 trombones would be best in the long run?

Just want to make sure I’m making the right desicion here....

Someone else said the Benge was pretty bright. That wasn't my memory of the horn. My memory was that the Kanstul 760 was the brightest horn I've ever played, and I sold the one I bought as quickly as I could. I'd be very glad to play the Benge 175F in a brighter pops orchestral setting in the first chair, or in a big band on 3rd, or a concert band 1st or second, or anything but bass in a trombone choir/quartet. Don't buy a horn thinking of resale. Think of the value to you. You'll probably be able to sell a horn for whatever you pay for it unless you damage it or it was overpriced to begin with (or you bought it from a shop with a lot of overhead like Dillons).

If you're used to blowing a lot of air, the .525 may be easier to get used to. As Bruce said, it's a small difference, but noticeable if you're not used to smaller horns. Resist the urge to think of a small bore horn as being "stuffy". Just think that you can conserve air, and still play with a full sound.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:41 pm
by Davidus1
Coming from tuba to trombone you have to adapt to the change. I don't blow the same on trombone as I do tuba or Euphonium. That won't work. There is a difference in the approach and that takes adjustment. I've played on some .485 bore horns that were free blowing.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:23 pm
by imsevimse
hyperbolica wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:01 pm Someone else said the Benge was pretty bright. That wasn't my memory of the horn. My memory was that the Kanstul 760 was the brightest horn I've ever played, and I sold the one I bought as quickly as I could.
I've learned here that bright is a negative word. I used to say I like my sound to be bright but I do think it is something I should stop saying. I guess it is a language barrier. I should probably say I want my sound to be full of colours. That's easier to understand. I'm guessing what you mean when you are talking about a bright sound is a very shallow sound, a sound with some sort of unbalance. A sound where the higher overtones dominates, maybe even a sharp sound? If this is the description of a bright sound then that's an unpleasant sound. I hereby declare I will never ever say I want a bright sound :good:

Anyway. I think I can make that sort of sound on any trombone if I want to. I can also change the sound to something more balanced if I want to. I have discovered that all this has to do with the sound I have in mind. If I imagine my sound to be wide and colorful and I blow my trombone with a relaxed blow (flow) and a focused embouchure (not to open) then I get a rich and colorful sound. No trombone sound bright if I do not play it bright.

/Tom

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:27 am
by TimBrass
Perhaps some of you would like to see the King and Benge options:
https://timbrass.stackstorage.com/s/ANqhpeMGFLS8hhp

My thoughts now:
Get the cheaper benge and have it refinished (costs 175 Euro) (pic. of the finish in link)
Why the benge:
- the 0.525 bore (mostly playing a large bore E3 Adams Euphonium)
- I've been informed that the benge is bit less "bright" that probably matches my concept of sound better. (again comming from euphonium)
- You don't see a benge 175F so often, so that's kinda cool.

Some background info on me:
Brittish style brass band player
Playing on a Adams 0.6 E3 SS bell
solid range over 4 1/2 octaves

Again, feel free to give me your thoughts.

You've all been a great help so far,....

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:23 am
by Vegastokc
Pics look good.
Sell a kidney and buy them both. :lol:

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:42 am
by TimBrass
For those intrested:

Eventually got the Benge 175F. Laquer will be stripped and the instrument wil be re-finished with an antique or vintage look.

Pics:
https://timbrass.stackstorage.com/s/57JsnudtXMyV87X

Trombone is now de-laquered and almost ready for the "new" finish.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:39 pm
by johnnymack
Congrats.
Does anyone have an opinion of the Benge 175 no valve and the .525 bore King 3B+/ 2125 No valve? FWIW I prefer straight Tenors in this bore size. Being primarily a Bass Trombonist I like to get away from the Valve when I play Tenor. To me the 175 is a heavier horn that gets a more dense sound. It is well balanced thru out the registers. IT is quite dark. Still, it is easy to navigate on. THe 3B+ gets a Clear/Brighter sound . I find I have to hold back on playing it or it gets edgy. Both horns are on the smaller side of the 525 horns and blend well in Pop/Jazz /Commercial settings. I have found I can use other leadpipes in the 175 but I never found a better leadpipe for the 3B+ than the ones that came in them. Just my opinion. I did try Minick's and a few Brass Labs I had at the time. Now I am using an Edwards SS 2 on the 175 .It is a bit more clear than the original pipe ( which is quite open). I also have a Greenhoe #1 . It nicely aides the upper register. Just my 2 cents based off my needs and concept of sound. I also just purchased the 175 and was wondering others opinions.

Re: Benge 175F

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:08 pm
by CarlVicVogel
The Benge 175 has brass outer tubes while the King 3B+ has nickel sleeves. That in itself would influence the King to play brighter.

CarlVicVogel