TromboneChat

Just bought a Conn 88H that was made in 1972- the first year of production after Conn moved to Aberline. (Interesting it says Aberline Texas on the bell). Does anyone know what year Conn switched from the so-called Remington taper to the Morse taper? In the case were an original Remington (no size or number) and A 6 1/2 AL. Not a fan of the Remington. The 61/2AL seals OK but wondering if I should drop money on a Remington shank 6-1/2 for even more fun.

Aberline or Abilene?

The town is Abilene (Texas).

Conn did not abandon the B&S Taper until the Gen II horns, or long after the demise of the Abilene facility.

Bach made a few special mouthpieces with the B&S taper. These are *R. I sold a 5GR to a friend for her Elkhart 88H and she really loves it.

You can have the leadpipe changed to the Morse taper, or do what we all did: put a wrap or two of teflon tape around the upper part of the shank until it doesn't wobble. The seal is at the tip.

Note that long shank Schilke mouthpieces (generally older ones) fit the B&S taper quite well. Also, Doug Elliott makes a shank for these instruments.

A Morse taper shank will seal but not play as well as it should - it leaves a gap around the end of the shank which has a bad acoustic effect even without leaking.

Having the correct tapered mouthpiece makes a huge difference on these instruments. They slot so much better.

I can highly recommend Doug Elliott's Conn shank with the added bonus of matching any cup and rim. Brings the old Elkhart horns to life.

There are other stock pieces out there like the Conn 5GR which you could try as well.

Good hunting....

Hamo.

My Abilene Conn 88h from 1979 came with Remington mouthpiece. I played many years on a Wick 6BL that did not fit. Many did the same on the same music college in the 80-ies. Nobody talked about Remington verses Moorse tapers.

It is after I learned about this on TTF that I special ordered my mouthpieces from Karl Hammond with Remington taper. The horn plays much better for me now with a mouthpiece that fits.

/Tom

Thank you for the info. I really like the way this sounds and plays with the standard large bore 6 1/2 AL. Like you said it should only improve the playability with the properly fitted piece. I’ll look around for a Bach 6-1/2 AL with the R shank. In the mean time I ordered, from Hickey’s, a Remington adapter to play my small shank mouthpieces in the 88H.

My 1972 88H ("R" serial number) was probably finished in Abilene from Elkhart parts. There is no manufacturing location on the bell - it's engraved "CONN - Made in U.S.A." It looks and plays exactly like the very fine earlier Elkhart 88Hs that I've played; I love it. When I bought it in 1972, it was provided with a Remington mouthpiece, which (of course) fits the receiver perfectly, but never really agreed with me. I tried a Bach 6½AL, but really found the best match to this trombone with a (long-shank) Schilke 51. Seems to fit the taper very well, as it does my playing style.

As Doug Elliott has pointed out, standard large-shank (e.g., Bach) mouthpieces don't work as well. If you like the 6½AL cup size, and don't want to pay for a special order, you might try to find a similarly-sized long-shank Schilke 50.

Bruce - I wrapped plumbers tape on both ends of the 6 1/2 AL shank and it improves the fit and performance.

Posaunus - Thanks for the info. Mine is also an R serial number: R114XX. I've never had the pleasure of playing an Elkhart, but I did try a new 88H recently and was not impressed. The '72 AbiIene plays and sounds much better. No comparison, actually. I get why the older horns are so coveted. I use to have a long shank Schilke 51 that I played with a King Silversonic Symphony. As I remember it had a nice sound and I would no doubt like it for this 88H.

Modern Schilkes have a dual taper and should fit, too. I really like the Symphony series...

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:30 pm Modern Schilkes have a dual taper and should fit, too. I really like the Symphony series...

I don't think you're right... But I don't have a modern Schilke or a Remington taper horn to compare it with...

Can someone else confirm this?

"Nobody talked about Remington verses Moorse tapers. " Oh yes. I did.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:37 am "Nobody talked about Remington verses Moorse tapers. " Oh yes. I did.

You are right, Sven. You did mention this to me and others but let me refrase that to "Nobody understood about Remington versus Moorse tapers". We were many who were to stupid to grasp the big consequences it had to the playing characteristics of our old Conn 88h horns.

We had no clue how to solve the problem either, but to play the original Remington mouthpiece. I think many students considered the Remington bad and to small for the ideal sound of that period. From what I recall a few choose a Bach 4G for the Conn 88h and the Bach 42. Those were the hype trombones in the 80-ies.

There were many of us who used mouthpieces that did not fit and a lot did good dispite that.

During college the majority of my lessons I had with the teacher who sold me his Wick 6BL and he never brought up the subject of Remington and Moorse tapered horns and what that meant. Maybe he was a Bach guy and had not experienced the problem? I was no collector at the time so I was not interested enough about equipment to notice and investigate things like that.

It was after a discussion on TTF that someone gave me the idea to specialorder the Hammond mouthpieces I like with Remington taper instead. It cost a little extra, but that made me order a 12M, 12ML, 12MXL, 11ML and a 20BL with Remington taper. They are worth every penny.

/Tom

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:21 am

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:30 pm Modern Schilkes have a dual taper and should fit, too. I really like the Symphony series...

I don't think you're right... But I don't have a modern Schilke or a Remington taper horn to compare it with...

Can someone else confirm this?

Well, I have been wrong before...

If I can locate the Schilke M5.1 tomorrow, I will try it out in an Elkhart 8H.

The old "Long shank" Schilkes had the dual taper. The modern "M" series do not.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:49 am The old "Long shank" Schilkes had the dual taper. The modern "M" series do not.

Well, I guess I was wrong again!

I will just quietly go away now...

According to my research, the Conn 88h had the Remington Shank up to 1992 then switched to the Morse shank. So the 70s and 80s were Remington.
CODE SYSTEM
First character (letter) indicates decade, "G" for 1970's, "H" for 1980's.
etc.
Second character (letter) indicates month of year, "A" for January, "B" for
February, etc.
Third character (number) indicates year of decade reading directly.
Fourth character (number) indicates instrument group as follows:
1- Cornet
2-Trumpet
3-Alto
4-French Horn
5-Mellophone
6-Valve Trombone
7-Slide Trombone
8-Baritone-Euphonium
9-Tuba
0-Sousaphone
The remaining four numbers constitute the serial number on a monthly basis.
Source: Allied Supply Corporation, Catalog No. 9-85. PO Box 288, Elkhorn,
WI 53121

Wow, a thread from 2018! But it is still an interesting and important topic.

People should be aware that many "Remington" shank 88H's have had the receiver area of their leadpipes deformed due to players ramming in regular mouthpieces for years or decades.

I'm bringing life back to this thread because I recently acquired a '62 8H. I am new to dealing with the Remington Shank and have been perusing the forum to learn more. The only mouthpiece I have right now for it is a Bach 5GS with Remington shank (stamped 88h). It has that wobble as discussed above. It also just doesn't seem to feel great to play and feels like a mismatch. Does that wobble mean the horn is out of round or do I just need to find a better fitting shank?

*edit: I am really not a fan of Schilke rims (or at least my face isn't)...incase that tidbit is helpful.

If the receiver has been changed to standard Morse taper, an 88H shank will not go in very far, and seat down at the bottom of the shank so you can see a gap around the top.

If that's the case you have a standard receiver, and the original must have been replaced.

Lhbone wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:39 am I'm bringing life back to this thread because I recently acquired a '62 8H. I am new to dealing with the Remington Shank and have been perusing the forum to learn more. The only mouthpiece I have right now for it is a Bach 5GS with Remington shank (stamped 88h). It has that wobble as discussed above. It also just doesn't seem to feel great to play and feels like a mismatch. Does that wobble mean the horn is out of round or do I just need to find a better fitting shank?

*edit: I am really not a fan of Schilke rims (or at least my face isn't)...incase that tidbit is helpful.

Unless you are a collector and need to keep things original, have the leadpipe replaced. If it is an original Remington leadpipe, it probably needs replacing anyway. My Remington leadpipe was forced into submission by a high school kid screwing wrong-tapered shanks into it for years. You can get non-Remington original 88h pipes very cheaply from Conn, and they are good pipes. You can buy a set of 3 for under $100 from Hickey's. There's no need to be limited by a Remington shank in 2023.

Lhbone wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:39 am I'm bringing life back to this thread because I recently acquired a '62 8H. I am new to dealing with the Remington Shank and have been perusing the forum to learn more. The only mouthpiece I have right now for it is a Bach 5GS with Remington shank (stamped 88h). It has that wobble as discussed above. It also just doesn't seem to feel great to play and feels like a mismatch. Does that wobble mean the horn is out of round or do I just need to find a better fitting shank?

*edit: I am really not a fan of Schilke rims (or at least my face isn't)...incase that tidbit is helpful.

Unless there's something interfering with the horns playability don't bother pulling the pipe.

As mentioned by others, chances are the leadpipe, if original, probably has been deformed. If so and if it's affecting play, have the pipe pulled by a tech. There's tons of leadpipe chocies aside from getting a stock Conn .547 pipe. I use a Bach 42 pipe in my 8H.

Remember that a lot of the benefits of an original Conn Remington Mouthpiece are the long shank which allows a long sweeping backbore which ends close to the venturi.. I use a very modified Remington piece (enlargened inner rim diameter and a Morse taper ) to fit my modern Conn leadpipe.. If You are going to have a custom built piece ,be sure to adjust the fit to be deeper to be closer to the venturi of the leadpipe..

Thank you, everyone, for the comments/advice.

Hyperbolica- I'm definitely not opposed to replacing the lead pipe if that's needed. I want a functional horn (as nice as historically original sounds).

Doug Elliot- Thanks for your thoughts...I think you are correct, but I've taken a few photos to be sure (Bach 5G, 5GS w/ 88H stamp, and a Greg Black as examples. If the lead pipe has been changed to the "Morse," then I just use a standard mouthpiece right? I'm just not used to seeing my 5G or Greg Black that far in a receiver.

Thank you again everyone - very much appreciated!

Even from the pictures, it's hard to tell without actually measuring or feeling it myself. The one stamped 88H looks like it goes in about the right amount, but there's no way to know if the taper that Bach put on that is actually the same as an original Remington mouthpiece. The other mouthpieces with standard Morse taper are going in about as far as I would expect in a Conn taper receiver. So the evidence is somewhat favorable that you have an original Conn leadpipe and receiver.

Plus, it looks original.

Thanks, Doug, as always for your wisdom! I was thinking it looked too "original" to have been updated as well. Any thoughts on pulling the leadpipe vs finding the right mouthpiece? I'm leaning towards the former. Do you have a recommendation for a tech in the D.C. area by chance?

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:04 pm Even from the pictures, it's hard to tell without actually measuring or feeling it myself. The one stamped 88H looks like it goes in about the right amount, but there's no way to know if the taper that Bach put on that is actually the same as an original Remington mouthpiece. The other mouthpieces with standard Morse taper are going in about as far as I would expect in a Conn taper receiver. So the evidence is somewhat favorable that you have an original Conn leadpipe and receiver.

Plus, it looks original.

I just saw, this thread. I dug out, an old Remington mouthpiece and a standard large shank Bach. Note, the over length difference. A standard large shank (morse taper) will go in further. To fix the wobble, people would do the Bach twist!

Options: DE system, or replace the leadpipe. (I put a MV copy leadpipe, on my 88H.) Noah can hook you up.

Early Abilene horns can be very good (and bargains).

etbone wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:32 am Options: DE system, or replace the leadpipe. (I put a MV copy leadpipe, on my 88H.) Noah can hook you up.

Another option: Bob Reeves can re-shank a mouthpiece, either permanently or with the sleeve system, to alter the exterior shank taper to fit a different receiver. I had them do this with a couple Storks for the weird King DuoGravis reciver and it worked out great. I sent them the slide along with the mouthpieces, but that might not be necessary for a 88H Remington taper.

Thank you all for your input - this has been super helpful! I think I'm going to go the route of pulling the leadpipe...I'm going to my tech in the next few weeks anyway to get other work done. I can tell this horn has such great potential and love the sound of it, so I'm excited to bring to a more modern era and have the luxury of finding a good leadpipe for it. I'll create a post down the road about the result in case it helps anyone else in their Elkhart era adventures.