For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

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JonTheCadet
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For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by JonTheCadet »

Hello all,

To begin, I would consider myself as a VERY bad trombonist. After 1 and a half years of learning I still can't hit the high B flat, or only occasionally.

I have recently been invited to join my school's jazz band, of which there is 4 trombone parts. I currently play the 4th. On a small-bore tenor.

On my first thought of buying a trombone, a G bass Boosey came to my mind, but my teacher immediately said 'NO', and told me to stick to my current student trombone.

The only bad news is, the school is taking back the trombone from me next year(it belongs to the school, not me), and I can either rent one, buy one or play nothing, really. 3rd option is out of the window BTW, because without a trombone I can't technically choose Music for my A-Levels.

A few days ago, on the jazz band's last performance a professional trombonist told me to either get a smaller mouthpiece, or a larger trombone. He said a contrabass trombone would be good for me, or at least he said i would be in 'high demand'.

I would like to get one... only if they don't cost that much.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you cant be bothered to read that, don't worry and here's a quick summary:

Should I buy a bass trombone or a F contrabass trombone as a beginner?

(As a side question, would I need new mouthpieces if I were to buy a F contra?)
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by TheBoneRanger »

Do not buy a contrabass trombone.

You would not be in high demand as a contrabass trombone player. There is no "demand" for contrabass trombone. Anyone who gave you such advice is definitely not a professional trombone player.

At this early point in your trombone life, the best thing you can do is to find a teacher or a mentor to steer you away from terrible advice such as what you have received. Ask around your local area as to who the best instructor is, and go and take a lesson. They will point you in the right direction.

Good luck!

Andrew
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by BGuttman »

First: G bass trombones are obsolete (thank heavens!) and used only for special occasions. You'll never be successful in a big band with a G bass.

Second: contrabass trombones are an awfully big change for a newbie player on a regular tenor. They are generally in a different key. Also not good for bass trombone parts in a jazz band. Also, a contrabass trombone will cost as much as 10 beginner trombones.

If you are really set on playing 4th parts in a jazz band, and are only a year plus into the journey, get a beginner instrument with an F-attachment. There are many good used ones. The Yamaha 356, King 607, etc. or new JP Rath, Wessex, etc. It's a small or medium bore trombone with an F-attachment. If cost is an issue, go used.

If you can join the local Brass Band, they may have something sitting in a cupboard that they can loan you.

Why are you planning to study trombone as a major with so little experience? Maybe you should consider majoring in something else and keeping trombone as a hobby.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by JonTheCadet »

Thanks Andrew and Bruce.

I currently study in a boarding school and there's no way I can play in a local band but the school's. There's only 1 teacher available for trombones and tubas.

For my A-Levels, I'm half-set regarding the instruments needed - I have a grade 8 on piano, and I reckon I can (probably) get a grade 6 in 2 years, with a lot of time and practice which I am willing to pay. (Or if I can't get a grade 6 before then, I can probably get grade 6 on Baritone)

The sole reason I wanted a G bass is because of its price nowadays. I understand that the only function of a G bass is to play pedal D, but for its price(about £400) it's not too bad for a piece of, well, crack-pipe history.

Price is a bit of an issue to me, and if I can't find a suitable one I might as well go with Chinese trombones.

In the worst case, I probably won't be playing a trombone, and instead pick another subject over Music. I'll see.

Jon
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by BGuttman »

Do you already have a Baritone Horn? Conversion from baritone to trombone is not too difficult.

For 400 pounds you should be able to find a used instrument with an F-attachment.

If you decide to go new, look to JP Rath (John Packer) or Wessex Tubas. They are Chinese, but the importers do proper QC on the instruments so your chances of getting a dud are reduced.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by JonTheCadet »

Dear Bruce,

By Baritone, I do not mean the horn, but singing.

I have seen a new double rotor trombone for sale for around £240. I guess that's not too bad for a Chinese trombone. However, that price does seem a little scam-y.

Jon
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by blast »

The pro player was joking about the contra. Clue was the 'in demand' bit.
£400 should get you a decent Bb/F tenor.
Ebay or Gumtree.... check with your teacher before buying.
Don't buy a Chinese bass for £240.... it will most likely be rubbish.

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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Davidus1 »

TheBoneRanger wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 6:20 am Do not buy a contrabass trombone.

You would not be in high demand as a contrabass trombone player. There is no "demand" for contrabass trombone. Anyone who gave you such advice is definitely not a professional trombone player.

At this early point in your trombone life, the best thing you can do is to find a teacher or a mentor to steer you away from terrible advice such as what you have received. Ask around your local area as to who the best instructor is, and go and take a lesson. They will point you in the right direction.

Good luck!

Andrew
Great advice! +1
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Davidus1 »

BGuttman wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 6:59 am Do you already have a Baritone Horn? Conversion from baritone to trombone is not too difficult.

For 400 pounds you should be able to find a used instrument with an F-attachment.

If you decide to go new, look to JP Rath (John Packer) or Wessex Tubas. They are Chinese, but the importers do proper QC on the instruments so your chances of getting a dud are reduced.
Definitely agree. I own two Wessex horns. They are good serviceable trombones and would fit perfectly for someone like you that is in need of a budget horn of quality. Definitely check out the John Packer Rath horns. I have not played the trombones but have the tubas and they are very very good. I've nothing but positive feedback about the trombones as well. Best wishes in your search.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Davidus1 »

JonTheCadet wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 7:10 am Dear Bruce,

By Baritone, I do not mean the horn, but singing.

I have seen a new double rotor trombone for sale for around £240. I guess that's not too bad for a Chinese trombone. However, that price does seem a little scam-y.

Jon
If you are buying Chinese be careful.........there are only a couple of reputable dealers and a lot of junk out there.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by greenbean »

You asked the wrong question, I would say. The question should be: Tenor or bass? And the best answer is tenor. One with an F-attachment would be ideal. Good luck!
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by FeelMyRath »

This wouldn't be a bad shout for the £££

https://www.reevesbrass.com/elkhart-by- ... -114-p.asp
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Matt K »

FeelMyRath wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 2:34 pm This wouldn't be a bad shout for the £££

https://www.reevesbrass.com/elkhart-by- ... -114-p.asp
Actually, it seems like that horn is an "Elkhart" brand, not a Conn Elkhart. "Elkhart by Vincent"... I think some of them are similarly branded with "STRAT" or "STRATIVARIUS" though I might be confusing them with other lower quality horns. Even at that price, I'd probably shy away from that particular model. I've never played one that was even remotely good.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by FeelMyRath »

I know someone that has one and it's actually a very good instrument. It's an Elkhart by Vincent Bach and is pretty much a 42BO with a few nice touches removed. It's not one of the fake Chinese "Bach Strat" that you can buy from Alibaba.

Also Clive Reeves is a very well respected musician (trombonist) and dealer in the UK.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by BGuttman »

Interesting. There was a brand "Elkhart" that was a low level instrument some time in the 1930s. Had a heart shaped counterweight with an elk head on it. Not terribly good and certainly not worth 400 pounds -- more like 40.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by paulyg »

If you've been "invited" to play in your school's jazz band then you are probably doing something right.

Stick out a couple rehearsals on your current instrument. If there is an issue with your playing that arises because of your instrument, your section mates/section leader/band director will tell you!l Otherwise, focus on playing the parts as best you can.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Neo Bri »

greenbean wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 10:15 am You asked the wrong question, I would say. The question should be: Tenor or bass? And the best answer is tenor. One with an F-attachment would be ideal. Good luck!
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by davebb »

According to your profile, you play a "Coppergate" with f attachment/ Like this ?
https://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Bra ... 4music/8M5
This is a large bore tenor - not a small bore.
Also, you profile says that you use a Bach 1-1/2G, which is a bass trombone mouthpiece.. I think the comment " a professional trombonist told me to either get a smaller mouthpiece, or a larger trombone " needs to be read in this context, meaning that your current mouthpiece is a good match for a bass trombone but not for your current tenor.

To figure out whether you want to play tenor or bass, try playing your current instrument with a 4G or 5G mouthpiece for a month.

If you want to play tenor, but mainly want to play jazz, then you should look at smaller bore trombones.

To get a good Bb/F large bore, you might need to spend a bit more e.g.
https://www.gumtree.com/p/trombone/conn-88h-/1299603636

If you really want to play bass, something like this would be a good place to start:
https://www.johnpacker.co.uk/prod/secon ... s-trombone
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by MoominDave »

I wonder if the teacher actually said "bass" and it was misheard or misconstrued by Jon? That would make a whole lot more sense.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by JonTheCadet »

Thanks a lot for all the replies, advices and help.
MoominDave wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 1:19 am I wonder if the teacher actually said "bass" and it was misheard or misconstrued by Jon? That would make a whole lot more sense.
No, the 'professional' trombonist(since someone questioned about his professionality) did say contrabass.
davebb wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 11:55 pm According to your profile, you play a "Coppergate" with f attachment/ Like this ?
https://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Bra ... 4music/8M5
This is a large bore tenor - not a small bore.
It looks a bit like that, the attachment is identical but I don't have the red-brass/rose-brass bell.
davebb wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 11:55 pm Also, you profile says that you use a Bach 1-1/2G, which is a bass trombone mouthpiece.. I think the comment " a professional trombonist told me to either get a smaller mouthpiece, or a larger trombone " needs to be read in this context, meaning that your current mouthpiece is a good match for a bass trombone but not for your current tenor.

To figure out whether you want to play tenor or bass, try playing your current instrument with a 4G or 5G mouthpiece for a month.
I do play on a Bach 1-1/2G mouthpiece, and so did the professional trombonist - though the one that he uses is gold plated and reads differently from mine. Mine says 'Vincent Bach' whereas his says 'Vincent Corp.' Not sure if that makes any difference.

However, I don't play on the Bach that often now. I have a reamed-out Yamaha 59L which is quite powerful playing pedal Cs and the notes below. Not good for a high G though.

He recommended me either a 2G or a 3G(4G is too small he claims).

Jon
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Tooloud »

I think you should put away any of these things you are currently using. When the school takes this trombone back, you are lucky.

Because: You will never be an acceptable bass trombonists just because you just cannot reach even the middle register.

First you have to learn how to play the trombone in general. Starting an a bass trombone mouthpiece is rubbish. Start over with normal equipment: Small bore tenor trombone and any mouthpiece from 7c to 12 c.
Then a reasonable teacher is necessary. If after one and a half years you can't reach the middle b flat, there are some things going really the wrong way.
Equipment can be an issue in about four to five years time - or maybe never!

Just so: I do wonder, what sort of music our school-band is playing. The simple scores I know demand minimum a middle d from the 3./4. trombone.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by JonTheCadet »

Tooloud wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 6:53 am I think you should put away any of these things you are currently using. When the school takes this trombone back, you are lucky.

Because: You will never be an acceptable bass trombonists just because you just cannot reach even the middle register.
Middle register is fine for me, I can go up to a middle G sharp before I really struggle. I do have a 12C, but I don't play on it anymore. Now, of course, middle G sharp is nothing to be proud of, and I know well I'm VERY bad that I still can't play a high B flat after 1 and a half years of learning.
Tooloud wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 6:53 am First you have to learn how to play the trombone in general. Starting an a bass trombone mouthpiece is rubbish. Start over with normal equipment: Small bore tenor trombone and any mouthpiece from 7c to 12 c.
Then a reasonable teacher is necessary. If after one and a half years you can't reach the middle b flat, there are some things going really the wrong way.
Equipment can be an issue in about four to five years time - or maybe never!

Just so: I do wonder, what sort of music our school-band is playing. The simple scores I know demand minimum a middle d from the 3./4. trombone.
I might've phrased myself wrong here, the B flat I struggle to hit is the one after the A double-flat, not the one after the sharp F - any note below the G is okay for me.(Again, nothing to be proud of)

On one of the scores, a middle F is needed from 4ths. That I have no issue playing with my reamed-out 59L.

Jon
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by BGuttman »

High Bb (4 lines above the bass staff) is usually a difficult note for even players of 2 or 3 years. I wouldn't beat myself up over being unable to hit it. If you playing transposed treble, it's Bb a line and a space above the treble staff, but that's actually high A. Then again, if you are playing in a jazz band you shouldn't be reading transposed treble clef.

I'm not sure I understand how you are describing things. Are you talking about the partial series? I've never heard the 7th partial described as "A double flat" in 1st position; it's usually a very flat Ab.

If your goal is to play notes way lower than those written for you consider switching to tuba. Ad lib 8va basso improvisations on bass trombone often do not sound that good. That range is the province of a tuba player. I constantly hear kids who use oversize mouthpieces to play very low notes and are very flat in the are above the bass staff. This is a classic sound of too large a mouthpiece. Often their tone is rather reminiscent of a wounded moose and they should be careful about playing too much outside during mating season. :evil:

There are a lot of different eras of Bach 1 1/2 G. The ones that are in high esteem are the ones that say "Vincent Bach Corp." and "Mount Vernon, NY". There are small and subtle differences between them, but I'd be no student of 1 1/2 years will ever be able to notice them.

I realize the 12C probably doesn't fit in your trombone, but you should be downsizing to something more rational at this stage. Probably a 6.5 AL large shank. Especially if you get your own instrument.

Bass trombone is something we move to after we learn on a tenor.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Tooloud »

JonTheCadet wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 am
I might've phrased myself wrong here, the B flat I struggle to hit is the one after the A double-flat, not the one after the sharp F - any note below the G is okay for me.(Again, nothing to be proud of)

On one of the scores, a middle F is needed from 4ths. That I have no issue playing with my reamed-out 59L.

Jon
Oh, ok. That does sound less weird! It's your american way of describing notes instead of using the classical european names: You meant: b1. That's ok for that stage of playing in my opinion!

Sorry, Jon!!
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by JonTheCadet »

BGuttman wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 7:47 am High Bb (4 lines above the bass staff) is usually a difficult note for even players of 2 or 3 years. I wouldn't beat myself up over being unable to hit it. If you playing transposed treble, it's Bb a line and a space above the treble staff, but that's actually high A. Then again, if you are playing in a jazz band you shouldn't be reading transposed treble clef.

I'm not sure I understand how you are describing things. Are you talking about the partial series? I've never heard the 7th partial described as "A double flat" in 1st position; it's usually a very flat Ab.
Never have I(so far) needed to read treble clef parts in jazz band, especially when I'm playing 4th. It is the notes after the very flat A flat(which I have mistaken as A double-flat) that I struggle to play.
BGuttman wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 7:47 am If your goal is to play notes way lower than those written for you consider switching to tuba. Ad lib 8va basso improvisations on bass trombone often do not sound that good. That range is the province of a tuba player. I constantly hear kids who use oversize mouthpieces to play very low notes and are very flat in the are above the bass staff. This is a classic sound of too large a mouthpiece. Often their tone is rather reminiscent of a wounded moose and they should be careful about playing too much outside during mating season. :evil:

There are a lot of different eras of Bach 1 1/2 G. The ones that are in high esteem are the ones that say "Vincent Bach Corp." and "Mount Vernon, NY". There are small and subtle differences between them, but I'd be no student of 1 1/2 years will ever be able to notice them.
Well, I guess I am one of those kids. I don't reckon, however, that I play flat(or sharp) by too much, as a conductor myself I am very picky on instruments(problems with perfect pitch) being sharp or flat(especially the 'cellos and flutes). Whenever there's a practice session I make sure I do enough warm-up before so that I don't shame myself.

Speaking of tuba, it might be a good idea. There's a double B flat tuba in my school(owned previously by Owen Slade), and the tubist is leaving for a music college. Maybe if I can overtake and beat the guy who plays the euphonium...
BGuttman wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 7:47 am I realize the 12C probably doesn't fit in your trombone, but you should be downsizing to something more rational at this stage. Probably a 6.5 AL large shank. Especially if you get your own instrument.

Bass trombone is something we move to after we learn on a tenor.
The professional trombonist did recommend me a 2G or a 3G. However, I feel fine playing on my reamed-out 59L(and probably sounds awful). I shall look for a smaller one this summer, and probably a large-bore tenor.

Jon
Last edited by JonTheCadet on Tue May 29, 2018 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Matt K »

Sometimes the double bass (as in the stringed instrument) is referred to as a contrabass. That would make a lot more sense and explain their mentioning of being in demand. I'd bet on that for sure. Or conceivably they meant tuba which also has a similar designation and you would probably be more in demand. (It's also possible it was a joke too, as others have mentioned.)

The advice on mouthpiece is interesting and may have been true generally perhaps 50 years ago. 3G is generally a large tenor piece but too small for bass trombone. It depends on what you're playing and why you're playing it. I would probably figure out which you want to play and stick with that until you get better at that. A reamed out 59 is probably not the best piece for you at the moment though a 1.5G may not be a good fit for you either. There are a number of pieces in between those though. Certainly there are a lot of pieces in between the 3G and a bored out 59! A Schilke or Yamaha 58 or a 59 without being reamed out may be a good choice. I've never played a reamed out anything that ended up being good... It is possible to start on bass trombone and indeed I know a few players who have done that trajectory and are quite good players now. It isn't a common path, but it is possible.

I stand corrected about the particular "Elkhart" model --- there is, or at least was, a similar Chinese knock-off brand. Name was basically a hodge-podge of trademarks of other, well-known brands. But if you know that horn specifically, then it sounds like it might be a good fit if the OP wanted to play tenor.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by JonTheCadet »

Tooloud wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 8:41 am
JonTheCadet wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 am
I might've phrased myself wrong here, the B flat I struggle to hit is the one after the A double-flat, not the one after the sharp F - any note below the G is okay for me.(Again, nothing to be proud of)

On one of the scores, a middle F is needed from 4ths. That I have no issue playing with my reamed-out 59L.

Jon
Oh, ok. That does sound less weird! It's your american way of describing notes instead of using the classical european names: You meant: b1. That's ok for that stage of playing in my opinion!

Sorry, Jon!!
No no, there's no need for an apology. Considering you guys are much more experienced than I am(and could ever possibly be), you have every right to criticize me.
Matt K wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 8:56 am Sometimes the double bass (as in the stringed instrument) is referred to as a contrabass. That would make a lot more sense and explain their mentioning of being in demand. I'd bet on that for sure. Or conceivably they meant tuba which also has a similar designation and you would probably be more in demand. (It's also possible it was a joke too, as others have mentioned.)

The advice on mouthpiece is interesting and may have been true generally perhaps 50 years ago. 3G is generally a large tenor piece but too small for bass trombone. It depends on what you're playing and why you're playing it. I would probably figure out which you want to play and stick with that until you get better at that. A reamed out 59 is probably not the best piece for you at the moment though a 1.5G may not be a good fit for you either. There are a number of pieces in between those though. Certainly there are a lot of pieces in between the 3G and a bored out 59! A Schilke or Yamaha 58 or a 59 without being reamed out may be a good choice. I've never played a reamed out anything that ended up being good... It is possible to start on bass trombone and indeed I know a few players who have done that trajectory and are quite good players now. It isn't a common path, but it is possible.

I stand corrected about the particular "Elkhart" model --- there is, or at least was, a similar Chinese knock-off brand. Name was basically a hodge-podge of trademarks of other, well-known brands. But if you know that horn specifically, then it sounds like it might be a good fit if the OP wanted to play tenor.
Matt,

When I mentioned about my reamed-out 59L, it is, or it was, a Yamaha 59L. My teacher thought that when I reamed out my mouthpiece, I am going to turn the trombone into an A trombone. Turns out it didn't, and so far I enjoy playing on it. On dimensions, my Bach is smaller than my Yamaha. In fact, the throat is nearly the same size as Rath's B1 Frost.

As a 4th trombone player, I don't think the director would like a warm sound coming out of my trombone. Bach 1 1/2G is not that great(as noted and proven) for now. Any suggestions on smaller, yet not too small mouthpieces?

Jon
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by MoominDave »

One or two little hints in this make me think you might be in the UK. Which is the school that you refer to? Or if you aren't happy telling us which school, which county is it in?

Wondering if you might be local and whether I might know your teacher - there are lots of private schools around here.
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by JonTheCadet »

Dave,

You are correct. I am in Lancing, West Sussex. I should've made it clear at the beginning.

Jon
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Re: For Absolute Beginners: Bass or Contrabass?

Post by Matt K »

When I mentioned about my reamed-out 59L, it is, or it was, a Yamaha 59L. My teacher thought that when I reamed out my mouthpiece, I am going to turn the trombone into an A trombone. Turns out it didn't, and so far I enjoy playing on it. On dimensions, my Bach is smaller than my Yamaha. In fact, the throat is nearly the same size as Rath's B1 Frost.
I've played pieces of varying throat sizes, for example, the Giddings pieces all have rather large throats. That isn't necessarily a problem (although it may be for you as well, too big and it can be more difficult to play). When something is reamed out though, it changes the internal shape. So there's potentially less cup or less shank, etc. You might luck out in some cases but I've never been so lucky!
As a 4th trombone player, I don't think the director would like a warm sound coming out of my trombone. Bach 1 1/2G is not that great(as noted and proven) for now. Any suggestions on smaller, yet not too small mouthpieces?
Bach 1.5G is perhaps the most commonly used bass trombone mouthpiece in the world and it works for a lot of people. If you go in the TTF archives here, there's a very long thread dedicated to it, actually! I think it's well worth the read. However, that doesn't mean it's for everyone. The Faxx 1.5G, which is a copy of a particularly good Bach 1.5G has a little thinner of a rim which I like and it might be a good option to try for you. It isn't very expensive despite it's level of quality. I've heard from a number of players, though I've not played one myself, that the Yamaha 59 does not compare favorably with the Schilke 59 on which it was patterned. If you think your 59 is comfortable, it might behoove you to try a Schilke 58 or 59. It's hard to say if one will work or not, but getting something that is commonly used without modifications and playing that for awhile is probably your best bet. For bass, I think generally speaking the two or three pieces that tick those boxes are the Bach or Faxx 1.5G and the Schilke 58 or 59.
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