Bach 36 Open Wrap

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Davidus1
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Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by Davidus1 »

How much of a difference does having an open wrap 36 make compared to closed wrap? Can you really feel a difference in the blow? I'm assuming so but have never owned one. Being a tuba player by trade would like to hear from those with experience. :?:
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whitbey
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by whitbey »

This probably not the answer you hear most. 30 years ago I bought a 36B with the closed wrap. The open wrap did not seem any better, in fact it seemed tighter. Maybe because of the 180 degree turn. Also the balance of the closed wrap was better. The open wrap needed a counter weight on the slide. I sold the horn a few years later to a guy that did not want the loop of pipe out there without any dents in that slide.
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Davidus1
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by Davidus1 »

whitbey wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 7:09 am This probably not the answer you hear most. 30 years ago I bought a 36B with the closed wrap. The open wrap did not seem any better, in fact it seemed tighter. Maybe because of the 180 degree turn. Also the balance of the closed wrap was better. The open wrap needed a counter weight on the slide. I sold the horn a few years later to a guy that did not want the loop of pipe out there without any dents in that slide.
Interesting! Thanks for the post and the info.
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Basbasun
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by Basbasun »

I hade many both closed wraps and open wraps over many years. The good thing about the open wrap is that the condense water in the valve tubing is pouring down into the slide by it self. The sound however is not better than the closed wrap and the balance is not what I like. My best horns are closed wrap.
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by Davidus1 »

Basbasun wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 8:40 am I hade many both closed wraps and open wraps over many years. The good thing about the open wrap is that the condense water in the valve tubing is pouring down into the slide by it self. The sound however is not better than the closed wrap and the balance is not what I like. My best horns are closed wrap.
Thanks for this. I appreciate the info. These definitely weren't the answers that I thought I'd get so I appreciate your responses.
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Matt K
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by Matt K »

I tend to prefer closed wraps. I even had a Bach 36 closed wrap put on my Shires (with some other modifications... I actually added a second valve to it. I don't prefer it because of the feel though; I prefer them because I'm clumsy and like not having damaged tuning slides!

The benefits to open wrap are that, some of the time, they're better balanced (because more weight is behind the main tuning slide). They also drain water better, although on a tenor I've never lived in an area where this was really much of a consideration. I used to take my tuning slide out and try to dump out water when I was done playing... but after a week of doing it without anything ever coming out... I stopped.

The idea that open wraps are more 'open' feeling than closed wraps stems from the idea that there are less bends. I don't personally find it to be a particularly strong correlation on the horns I've played; I too have played great examples of both. My personal thought on the matter is that there may be more possibility to screw up the build of a closed wrap because there are more solder points and bracing to mess up.

Bear in mind that most open wraps have a very tight 180 degree bend at the end. There are two such points on a closed wrap, though they are wider generally speaking. Which factor is more important? Man, that'd be hard to prove one way or another. Then compound that with two other popular style wraps: The ones that Yamaha puts on most of their horns (they call it a semi-open wrap) that actually has more bends than a 'traditional' closed wrap and a sharp 180 degree at the end like most open wraps. Sounds horrible, right? Except those are some of the better playing horns to me! Then you have the wrap that Shires, et al. puts on their horns that uses a "C" shape pipe with a closed-wrap style port.

If I were building a horn, I'd probably go with the "C" shaped stuff, as is the popular trend now among most manufacturers but purely because it gives the advantage of having a wrap that doesn't extent too far but has less tubing to bend and fewer solder points. But if I were buying? I wouldn't concern myself too much with it unless I had a specific problem with the length of an open wrap (e.g. the stage I played on had a very close wall behind me).
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by Davidus1 »

Matt K wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 2:03 pm I tend to prefer closed wraps. I even had a Bach 36 closed wrap put on my Shires (with some other modifications... I actually added a second valve to it. I don't prefer it because of the feel though; I prefer them because I'm clumsy and like not having damaged tuning slides!

The benefits to open wrap are that, some of the time, they're better balanced (because more weight is behind the main tuning slide). They also drain water better, although on a tenor I've never lived in an area where this was really much of a consideration. I used to take my tuning slide out and try to dump out water when I was done playing... but after a week of doing it without anything ever coming out... I stopped.

The idea that open wraps are more 'open' feeling than closed wraps stems from the idea that there are less bends. I don't personally find it to be a particularly strong correlation on the horns I've played; I too have played great examples of both. My personal thought on the matter is that there may be more possibility to screw up the build of a closed wrap because there are more solder points and bracing to mess up.

Bear in mind that most open wraps have a very tight 180 degree bend at the end. There are two such points on a closed wrap, though they are wider generally speaking. Which factor is more important? Man, that'd be hard to prove one way or another. Then compound that with two other popular style wraps: The ones that Yamaha puts on most of their horns (they call it a semi-open wrap) that actually has more bends than a 'traditional' closed wrap and a sharp 180 degree at the end like most open wraps. Sounds horrible, right? Except those are some of the better playing horns to me! Then you have the wrap that Shires, et al. puts on their horns that uses a "C" shape pipe with a closed-wrap style port.

If I were building a horn, I'd probably go with the "C" shaped stuff, as is the popular trend now among most manufacturers but purely because it gives the advantage of having a wrap that doesn't extent too far but has less tubing to bend and fewer solder points. But if I were buying? I wouldn't concern myself too much with it unless I had a specific problem with the length of an open wrap (e.g. the stage I played on had a very close wall behind me).
Thanks. I can see where have the tubing extended out could make the horn prone to dents/etc. I guess I will just have to play on a few when I get the chance and see what sticks. I've played on a closed wrap 36 before. It was at DJs house and it was a very nice horn. Liked it a lot. Thanks for the info!
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by MichaelMedrick »

I have been trying to find a "Do All" .525 for several years now. When I refocused on Bach 36B as a possibility(I'm a long time daily driver of a 36GLW no attachment), I learned a few things from folks on the Trombone Forum, a good chat with a Bach rep at an ITF and from a couple of professional repair guys, Eric Edwards being the most prominent.

If you have played open or closed wrap 42s( I have, both...) you may have varying opinions about so called stuffiness in the valve and such. I am also a lifetime bass trombonist, so stuffy horns rarely thwart me. I don't want one, but I can make it work in a pinch.

I have been told that past the connection of the slide to the bell, a 36 and a 42 are the same parts. The F attachment is the same, the neck pipe and the tuning slide. Oh, the bell too. The only difference is the "Trim" on the flare.

I have had a couple of folks experience the 36 Effect. It depends on what else you have played but there are two basic versions:

1) .547 player tries 36 and says "Why have I been working so hard?"

2) Bass trombonists - .547 feels awfully close to my bass trombone. Viola! .525! It can be a Goldilocks "Feels just right" if you are looking for a tenor to pair with your bass chops.

I loath sticky out open wraps. They don't feel better enough to justify the imbalance, as others have mentioned. My old closed warp Corporation era F section is just fine, thank you.

My other option is an open wrap cut by Eric Edwards to G. It doesn't stick out, it is lighter by a little, open as Hell and gives my F/C and E/B about 3rd and 4th-ish. There is a solid low D in 7th, not the strain for it heinous low C.

What I am enjoying for the moment is a 36/42. Eric Edwards has me set up with a convertible bell for attachment or straight and added a .547 lower tube(s) to an already widened 36 slide. This is what Bach has never done but Yamaha and some of the Boutique makers can set up.

Thanks!
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by Neo Bri »

MichaelMedrick wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 10:28 am I have been trying to find a "Do All" .525 for several years now. When I refocused on Bach 36B as a possibility(I'm a long time daily driver of a 36GLW no attachment), I learned a few things from folks on the Trombone Forum, a good chat with a Bach rep at an ITF and from a couple of professional repair guys, Eric Edwards being the most prominent.

If you have played open or closed wrap 42s( I have, both...) you may have varying opinions about so called stuffiness in the valve and such. I am also a lifetime bass trombonist, so stuffy horns rarely thwart me. I don't want one, but I can make it work in a pinch.

I have been told that past the connection of the slide to the bell, a 36 and a 42 are the same parts. The F attachment is the same, the neck pipe and the tuning slide. Oh, the bell too. The only difference is the "Trim" on the flare.

I have had a couple of folks experience the 36 Effect. It depends on what else you have played but there are two basic versions:

1) .547 player tries 36 and says "Why have I been working so hard?"

2) Bass trombonists - .547 feels awfully close to my bass trombone. Viola! .525! It can be a Goldilocks "Feels just right" if you are looking for a tenor to pair with your bass chops.

I loath sticky out open wraps. They don't feel better enough to justify the imbalance, as others have mentioned. My old closed warp Corporation era F section is just fine, thank you.

My other option is an open wrap cut by Eric Edwards to G. It doesn't stick out, it is lighter by a little, open as Hell and gives my F/C and E/B about 3rd and 4th-ish. There is a solid low D in 7th, not the strain for it heinous low C.

What I am enjoying for the moment is a 36/42. Eric Edwards has me set up with a convertible bell for attachment or straight and added a .547 lower tube(s) to an already widened 36 slide. This is what Bach has never done but Yamaha and some of the Boutique makers can set up.

Thanks!
What an excellent post - thank you for this.
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Re: Bach 36 Open Wrap

Post by MichaelMedrick »

Thank you!
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