Why do Yamaha .525 horns have 8.5" bells?

[quiethorn]

Bach 36 .525 - 8" bell
Getzen .525 horns - 8" bell
Rath R3 .525 - 8" bell
Conn 78H/79H .522 - 8" bell (although apparently early on there were variants)
King 3B+ .525 - 8" bell
JP Rath .525 horns - 8" bell
Wessex .525 horns - 8" bell
Yamaha YSL-630/640/445G/446G .525 - 8.5" bell

What does Yamaha know that the rest are missing?

[Elow]

Do they not just swap the slide from the .547 variant?

[Elow]

https://www.yamaha24x7.com/#/partsdetai ... 6&l=10&p=1 Yeah they just use the 448 bell

[Burgerbob]

What does Yamaha know that the rest are missing?

That it's cheaper to spin 1 bell diameter than 2

[quiethorn]

I'd assume other horn makers also realize they could just swap in a bell from a .547" horn. I'm just wondering why Yamaha is the only that apparently does it?

[Burgerbob]

3 of those were designed before their large bore variants. Easier to keep doing what you're doing than change. 3B+ especially makes sense to stick with 8, and the Conns haven't been made in decades.

As for the rest... I'd assume they were either copying the dimensions or the idea of previous designs (see above) and 8 inch bells were part of that.

[walldaja]

Courtois also does this with the Mezzo 260 / 280--the bells are 8.5".

[stewbones43]

Bach 36 .525 - 8" bell
Getzen .525 horns - 8" bell
Rath R3 .525 - 8" bell
Conn 78H/79H .522 - 8" bell (although apparently early on there were variants)
King 3B+ .525 - 8" bell
JP Rath .525 horns - 8" bell
Wessex .525 horns - 8" bell
Yamaha YSL-630/640/445G/446G .525 - 8.5" bell

What does Yamaha know that the rest are missing?

There are always exceptions to the rules!

Yamaha YSL-356-Dual bore .500-.525in, Bell- 8.00in

Conn 74h and 75H-Bore .522in, Bell-8.5in. Post Elkhart.

I have a Conn 74H and it is a fine instrument for 1st part in an orchestral setting with a Connstellation Remington mouthpiece or for 3rd trombone in a big band with a Wick 6BS.

Cheers

Stewbones

[hyperbolica]

The 8.5 inch Yamaha bell is one of the reasons why I have never owned one of their mid-range horns. I just want a slightly more compact sound, lighter weight, and better visibility with smaller bore horns.

Why they do it probably comes down to what you think the function of a 525 is. Some people want it to sound like a small 547. In that case, you might put a 8.5 bell on it. I like it to be slightly more nimble, and smaller sounding, which is why I like 8". But then I like 500 bores to be 7.75" or 7.5". The older horns (like from the 1920s) probably had smaller bells because bells back then were smaller. I have a 78h rose brass bell that's 7 3/4".

The difference in sound is slight. The difference in feel, weight, and forward visibility are probably bigger than what the audience hears.

I sometimes put a 525 slide on my 88h, which is a different feeling from my 79h. I think the 79h is actually a darker horn than the 88h w/525.

[Mv2541]

The Rath R3 is compatible with R4 parts, not R12/10/1/2 ones, so you can get it with an 8.5'' bell as well. I think Shires' .525 is the same way.

[jacobgarchik]

i have a 20s 78h with an 8 1/2 bell.
nice sound, pretty dark.

[quiethorn]

The 8.5 inch Yamaha bell is one of the reasons why I have never owned one of their mid-range horns. I just want a slightly more compact sound, lighter weight, and better visibility with smaller bore horns.

Why they do it probably comes down to what you think the function of a 525 is. Some people want it to sound like a small 547. In that case, you might put a 8.5 bell on it. I like it to be slightly more nimble, and smaller sounding, which is why I like 8". But then I like 500 bores to be 7.75" or 7.5". The older horns (like from the 1920s) probably had smaller bells because bells back then were smaller. I have a 78h rose brass bell that's 7 3/4".

The difference in sound is slight. The difference in feel, weight, and forward visibility are probably bigger than what the audience hears.

This makes sense. Maybe Yamaha sees the .525 as a smaller .547, whereas most others see it as larger a .508 horn. I've always just been curious if that's a conscious choice on their part or a manufacturing decision (1 bell, different slides). Maybe the only way for me to find out is to get a job at Yamaha

I agree with you about the 8.5" bell. I borrowed a .525 Yamaha a long time ago and played it for a while. It was a great horn, but it threw me off because of what you mentioned: the 1st person view makes it feel like a .547 horn due to the bell size and weight.

[Bach5G]

What’s on a Shires Sauer horn?

I wonder if Yam sees its .525 w an 8.5” bell as a step-up horn?

[hyperbolica]

What’s on a Shires Sauer horn?

https://www.seshires.com/tbrs
8.5. Plus, it has the dual bore 547/525 slide, so it's just a smaller 547 - slightly trimmed down big orchestral horn.

I bought a Shires 525 w/ 8" a few years ago, and just sent it back. It played as big as my 88h. Sizes aren't always equivalent. It's not good or bad, again, just depends on what you want to do with the horn.

Rath R3, on the other hand, I thought was just about perfect.

[Mv2541]

What’s on a Shires Sauer horn?

https://www.seshires.com/tbrs
8.5. Plus, it has the dual bore 547/525 slide, so it's just a smaller 547 - slightly trimmed down big orchestral horn.

I bought a Shires 525 w/ 8" a few years ago, and just sent it back. It played as big as my 88h. Sizes aren't always equivalent. It's not good or bad, again, just depends on what you want to do with the horn.

Rath R3, on the other hand, I thought was just about perfect.

Maybe the Shires felt huge because of the main tuning slide taper? On the large bores it makes for a great high D in 1st, but maybe it's too big for a .525 slide? They are the same part right? If so maybe the X would feel better?

The small bores had a similar problem before they developed the 1 and 1.5 tuning slides which are tighter. I wouldn't want to spend any time on a Shires small bore if it didn't have the 1.5 tuning slide.

[hyperbolica]

Maybe the Shires felt huge because of the main tuning slide taper? On the large bores it makes for a great high D in 1st, but maybe it's too big for a .525 slide? They are the same part right? If so maybe the X would feel better?

The small bores had a similar problem before they developed the 1 and 1.5 tuning slides which are tighter. I wouldn't want to spend any time on a Shires small bore if it didn't have the 1.5 tuning slide.

Not sure, but maybe. I didn't want to spend any more time or money exploring that rabbit hole. I went back to my 79h. Some day I'll justify dropping the $ on an R3 or the M&W medium bore. My 88h is all the 547 I'll ever need.

[JLivi]

Conn 74h and 75H-Bore .522in, Bell-8.5in. Post Elkhart.

I have a Conn 74H and it is a fine instrument for 1st part in an orchestral setting with a Connstellation Remington mouthpiece or for 3rd trombone in a big band with a Wick 6BS.

I LOVE my Conn 74h. It doesn't get enough love on here, but I understand why. And I'm not going to sway anyone's opinion on the matter

Sorry for not answering the question

[tbonesullivan]

I seem to recall seeing a custom made 8H for Ralph Sauer at the Brass Ark a while ago that had a .525" bore handslide and an 8" bell, along with two different tuning slides, one of which was annealed.

While most .525" bore horns have 8 inch bells, there are also many .508 bore horns with 8 inch bells, in the spirit of the King 3B. However the King 3b+ uses the same size bell, just as the 2B and 2B+ do.

The Bach 45 was a .547" bore horn with a 9 inch bell. They took the hand slide from the Bach 45, matched it with the Bach 36 gooseneck and tuning slide, rolled the bell out an extra 1/2" on the same mandrel, and the Bach 42 was born.

Maybe Yamaha found that the 8.5 inch bell just worked better with that valve section, regardless of the size slide installed. From what I can tell, the current 600 series Yamaha trombones all use the same bell, and it is not one used on any previous horns. The part number is D0730504 BELL SL 640.

[PaulT]

I have the Yamaha 620 (.547) and the Yamaha 640 (.525). I can not switch slides between the two. The respective tubing where the two meet, bell and slide both, is smaller on the .525. I can switch tuning slides. The two horns are different in sound and play.

[JLivi]

Since we're talking about Yamaha bells...

I have played two older Yamahas that had dead bells. Is it just a coincidence that I happened to just get my hands on horns that didn't ring? I've definitely played some really nice Yamahas, but it was confusing when these just fell flat to my expectation. They were both 600 series horns.

I've never experienced this with other horns, and I've played a lot more King, Conn and Bach horns in my life. Maybe just a coincidence.

[hyperbolica]

Since we're talking about Yamaha bells...

I have played two older Yamahas that had dead bells. Is it just a coincidence that I happened to just get my hands on horns that didn't ring? I've definitely played some really nice Yamahas, but it was confusing when these just fell flat to my expectation. They were both 600 series horns.

I've never experienced this with other horns, and I've played a lot more King, Conn and Bach horns in my life. Maybe just a coincidence.

I've had a similar experience. In my case, I think it was that the horns just rang rather one-dimensionally. They didn't have the depth of other horns. I think these were older Yamahas, 651(500 bore) and 691 (509 bore). I've played an 891 (509) that was nearly perfect, and their basses didn't seem to be afflicted in the same way. I have a friend who has a 547 bore Xeno, and gets a great sound out of it.

[tbonesullivan]

I have the Yamaha 620 (.547) and the Yamaha 640 (.525). I can not switch slides between the two. The respective tubing where the two meet, bell and slide both, is smaller on the .525. I can switch tuning slides. The two horns are different in sound and play.

The tenons on the bell sections are different, but otherwise the bell sections are pretty much the same.