Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

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Shumanbean
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Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by Shumanbean »

Does anyone know of a thread that compares a 36 with a 3B+? Or can anyone describe the difference?
Thanks.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by Burgerbob »

Bach 36 is more of a small big horn, 3B+ is more of a big small horn.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by FOSSIL »

ah....the battle of little big horn...

Chris
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by BGuttman »

FOSSIL wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 3:51 pm ah....the battle of little big horn...

Chris
Just as long as there aren't too many Indians :P

Then again, it's been kinda hot here. I could use a visit to the last Custard stand :lol:
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by RJMason »

Insensitive joke involving indigenous peoples is not cool or funny, but very weird and uncomfortable. Check your privilege.

Back to the horns:

King 3B+ and Bach 36 are great horns I’ve owned both and played extensively. 3B+ is definitely 3B like, with a little more roundness but still punchy. It helped me mellow out strong attacks, but still cut through in sections. I liked it because I could put more air through the horn. High register didn’t choke up on me as much as some Kings have done for me. If you don’t mind playing on a larger setup, are frustrated by the blow of King small bores, but really want the King sound, Id recommend a 3B+!

I will say there is the old 2125 3B+ with a gold brass bell and the newer 3B PL with yellow or gold brass (even sterling silver, but rare) options. I really liked the original, having tried a friend’s newer gold brass horn, but eventually put a yellow brass HN white bell on my 3B+ and it sounded the best, for me.

Bach 36– I own 2–one from New York that feels more like a 36/42 hybrid. And one from the 80s. Great tone color and response. More overtones on my Bach’s than the 3B+. Stronger slots, for me, than the 3B+.

In a big band/jazz context, I would probably enjoy the the King more than the Bach. JJ vs. Jimmy Knepper Style, both great but I lean JJ. I’d say the King would be better in brass bands as it projects better. Orchestral context, I would lean Bach 36, but I used the 3B+ With F in some classical settings and it worked great. Despite all the praise, I would say the Bach 36 edges out the 3B+ in terms of overall versatility. The 36 can just fit into so many styles and genres, especially recording. I’ve used it for everything and it works. Desert Island horn. King 3B+, definitely less malleable to me, but great at its thing, especially if you want that round JJ Johnson sound. There are great players that use the 3B+ like Prof. Nick Finzer at UNT and sounds phenomenal!
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Mv2541
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by Mv2541 »

For me they both feel like big small horns (albeit different flavors), and .525 with large shank pipes feel like small big horns. In the sound department, the 3B+ definitely sounds like a larger version of the 3B, while a 36 is its own deal. I would almost say it sounds like a smaller 42, but I'm pretty sure the 36 was designed first right? Also the 36 is nowhere near as quirky as a 42 (with rotor).
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

I have always felt that the Bach 36 and Bach 36B were unique in the .522-.525 bore category (many refer to them as medium-large bore trombones). When compared to the other trombones in that size (King 3B+, King 607, Conn
78H, Conn 79H, Conn 50H, Yamaha 445, Yamaha 446, etc.....) the Bach 36 models just play bigger and more open.

Vincent Bach thought that the 36 was the perfect, large, symphonic trombone. He was extremely reluctant to make a larger tenor trombone. He only produced the 42 model because he needed a .547 bore horn that would compete with the Conn 88H. Even after the 42 was widely used, Vincent still thought the 36 model was his best symphonic trombone.

I have never played a .525 bore Shires or Edwards horn. I'm thinking that those companies probably used the Bach 36 as a starting point for their designs. If they did, I imagine that their .525 models would likely play big like the Bach 36 as well.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by Dennis »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:22 pm
Vincent Bach thought that the 36 was the perfect, large, symphonic trombone. He was extremely reluctant to make a larger tenor trombone.
Bach catalogs from the late 1960s to the mid 1970s listed the 36 and 42 as large bore trombones. Oddly, the 12 and 16 are listed as medium bore trombones. At that time, the 6 and 8 were not available (except perhaps as special order if you were a pro with connections). It always struck me as odd that Bach Bb trumpets had medium, medium-large, and large bore, while tenor trombones were medium and large.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by bellend »

Bach 36 is very malleable depending what size mouthpiece you use in it and can be used in many different musical settings. I had one with a yellow bell and lightweight slide that was fantastic and regret selling but, tax bills have to be paid :shock: .
King 3B+ , at least the couple I've blown are more one dimensional sound wise, possibly down to the gauge of metal used on the bells which I thought was a bit on the heavy side.

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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by dukesboneman »

I`ve owned and played many 36`s and Conn 78H`s and a couple 3B+`s
The 36`s and 78H`s to me seem more open to coloring and to being more chameleon like depending
on the situation and the player. I also know some Symphonic players that own a 36 (or years ago ) a 78H
for lighter works or when the 1st is playing alto.
I`ve never heard of an orchestral player using a 3B+ in an Orchestra
I know Cleveland used 4B`s for a while years ago and I believe that was an era before the 3B+ came into being.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by Neo Bri »

I have both of these horns for sale right now. Both very good. I'd say I agree with most of the comments on this - the 36 is more versatile and the 3B+ is a bit more linear and compact, but great too. I've never played a 3B+ with a valve. That would be interesting. I like valves.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by Shumanbean »

Thanks y’all. I went with a 36, but I like the idea of a 3b+ and wish I could afford to spend time with both. So many horns, but so little dough...
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by bimmerman »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:22 pmI have never played a .525 bore Shires or Edwards horn. I'm thinking that those companies probably used the Bach 36 as a starting point for their designs. If they did, I imagine that their .525 models would likely play big like the Bach 36 as well.
My Edwards .525 played very differently than my dad's Bach 36, and not in a good way-- it was stuffier and harder to blow....everywhere, despite being set up to be lightweight for an Edwards. Regardless of leadpipe and tuning slides, it just was way more work than it needed to be vs the 36. Dual .525/547 slide didn't help either.

So, I sold it. It played well as its own thing, but it wasn't what I was looking for.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by MagnumH »

Does anyone know how the older 3B+ with F attachment (2125, I believe) compares? As a king fan, I’m very interested in finding one, but I’d want it to work for several genres (theatre pits, The occasional pops/light classical, brass quintets, and big band 3rd chair).
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Bimmerman,
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Edwards .525 bore. Not what I expected. That's the beauty of this forum....there are always unexpected turns and surprises!

MagnumH,
I think the King 3B+ with F-attachment is a special order horn. I believe there was a thread about it on TromboneChat or its predecessor, the Trombone Forum. If I remember correctly, the idea of finding a Benge 175 (.525 bore with F-attachment) was one of the recommendations instead of doing a special order and waiting several months.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by MagnumH »

I believe they did used to be made as well, back in the 70s and 80s. Just wondering if anyone has experience with them!
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by BGuttman »

When the 3B+ with F (2125F) fit came out I had an opportunity to test one. I wanted to like it, but it really didn't ring the bell. The size is perfect for Pit, but so is a Conn 79H or Bach 36B. I did like that the bell brace went around my thumb so I could support the horn like a 3B-F. Unfortunately, reach was also like a 3B-F -- much tighter than the Conn or Bach.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by imsevimse »

I have a Bach 36BO and two King 3B and one King 3B/F. I have unfortunately no 3B+ or 3B+ with valve but I have a Benge 175 and a 175f. The Benge 175f is also a .525 horn and made of the King parts so what I've heard it is about the same as a King 3B+.

First there is a big difference between Bach and King. To me there is no old horns that play like a Bach. It is only from the 90ies some horns were produced that come close to a Bach sound and that's (for me) my Cortois 420, my Kanstul 1557 and my Edwards T350. Those are all Bach like to me, they are close to a Bach 42 sound.

When it comes to the Bach 36 there is no horn that I've played that come close to it. It is a very special horn that has not been successfully copied. Nothing that I've heard of or tried. Bach horns tunes different than the King and the Conn. King and Conn sound different but tune and can be played more alike.

So even though I have never played a King 3B+ I guess if I compared a King 3B+ and a Bach 36BO they would probably play a lot different. If I compare the Benge 175f to the Bach 36BO the Bach has a wider sound compared to the Benge which is more compact.

/Tom
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by EOlson9 »

I have a King 2125f and love it. I haven't played a 36b but I use my 2125 in pit orchestra, concert band (when i'm not playing bass) and when I'm not on bass in trombone choir as well (almost never) but it seems like a very versatile horn for me. Also, you cannot get a valve on a 3b+ as special order. I tried it before I bought this one beginning of last year. Only modern King with .525 and a rotor is the 607/608f.
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by rllantin »

Have owned and played many Bach 36's with and without F att. all very versatile. With regards to coloring and getting a full spectrum of sounds I do find the 36 to be versatile but just a bit heavy and more work for pop Salsa etc. Also have a 3B+ with some mods. Added a G att. and Bach 36 lead pipe as it was way too stuffy for my tastes. In my opinion the 3B+ with the 36 lead pipe kinda splits the difference between a true 36 and an original unmodified 3B+
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Re: Bach 36, king 3B+ comparison?

Post by euphobone »

Structurally, the 3B+ has a narrower slide, so it feels smaller in the hands and, to me, a more snug and uncomfortable fit against my head, resulting in an awkward left angle. I really enjoy playing them, but can't deal with the narrow slide. The 36 has always fit me physically better, but I haven't played on one that I liked enough to keep.
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