TromboneChat

I'd been playing on a brand new Yamaha 354 student bone (rented), and the tuning slide barely needed to come out for a clean Bb.

I've recently purchased a '71 Bach 36 in very nice (relacquered) condition, and the tuning slide needs to be 80% out for the same. This was somewhat surprising.

Is this somehow wear and tear?

Probably, but not likely. Horns are not the same, especially different model from different manufacturer.

Mine, in an air-conditioned room, is around 1.5 inch. The F slide is around 0,25 inch more. The D slide is around 0.5 inch less. It can change with mouthpiece.

Bach 42bo for me is about 1/4 to 1/3 out. Other 42bo players: is it the same for ypu?

About half an inch. Pretty much across the board on all my instruments from trumpet to bass trombone. The F slide is about an inch out for euphonium and tenor trombone.

All my bones, small bore/large bore/bass, require the tuning slide to be unusually far out to be in tune. OK, so I'm weird.

About one centimeter indoors in 20 C°. About two centimetres in 33 C°. This was the case outdoors this hot summer.

I think it depends alot on your way of playing. To day when playing bass trombone duets I noticed I had my tuningslide about one and a half centimetres out and my friend had his tuningslide in the closed position and we were in tune. The temperature was about 27C°. It depends on your emboushure

/Tom

I wouldn't be surprised if there may be a slight difference in slide position between horns and players. Is our "first" position against the corks or do we leave a little room to protect our teeth? It's not like the slide has clearly marked positions like a guitar / bass guitar neck. Where do we get our cues once we get past the bell of the horn or are we just listening for the pitch we want? As we go lower we need more room between the notes and as we go up we need less, certainly that has some play in our pitch matching.

Probably the more important aspect is are we actually playing in tune.

I got a Christmas CD once and in the liner notes the guys remarked that they had one shot to make the recording, flew in from various cities, cut the tracts, then went out for a beer. While reflecting over the beer one of the guys asked a simple question, "did we tune before we recorded?" I don't remember all the guys on the CD but I know Joe Alessi was one of them. It was a wonderful CD and pitch wasn't an issue! Then there is the wizard who spends all of his time looking at the electronic tuner while his pitch (and perhaps even his tone) makes others want to run away.

I have not used my tuning slide on any horn since 1975. I got to spend a day with Kai Winding and one of the first things he did was push my tuning slide all the way in and said "Use your ears".

I also find that I pull out more than others in my section. I am about 1.25" at normal temps. Last night where it was 91°F at the downbeat, it was almost to the end of the tuning slide. My bass is in-tune at about 0.75" and the F attachment and D attachment are just cracked open. While I understand the thought of using my ears when playing a fast run, I will be out of tune until I figure out where I sit compared to the others as there isn't time to adjust. I'd rather tune before and have a baseline. I am only an amateur however.

Every horn, every player, every mouthpiece, and every combination of those is different with how far out the tuning slide is.

Not to mention, in addition to all this, plenty of groups tend to just play a little-to-very sharp. I've had it happen too often where I'm nearly right on, and I'm way lower than everyone else. If you're the only person in the room who's right, you're wrong!

This question also has to do with where A is. In this part of Europe we use two different modern official tunings. We have the A=440 and the A=442 and of course the compromise in the middle A=441.

Indoors I push my tuningslide to the bottom to be able to play A=442, but leave it out a bit if I play A=440. Some of my instruments have the tuningslide cut and then they naturally are even further out. When it is very hot then my tuningslide has to be more out than normal. When I come to a symphony orchestra I usually ask the oboist what tuning they use and then I adjust my tuningslide before I tune. I never allow my tuning-note to be out of tune. After I've played the note I question myself what I had to do to make the note in tune. If I had to lip it in place I move the tuningslide accordingly. After this I adjust my tuningslide if I feel my sound is not centred and is not my best sound.

If I feel I lip notes in tune then I first start to play shorter or longer positions depending on me being flat or sharp and as soon as I understand the situation I move the main tuningslide accordingly. Yes I do move my main tuningslide, but not much. It is millimeters after the main tuningslide position has been set to match the orchestras tuning A.

/Tom

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:07 pm I have not used my tuning slide on any horn since 1975. I got to spend a day with Kai Winding and one of the first things he did was push my tuning slide all the way in and said "Use your ears".

Either my horns or my face is flat, so I've been doing this for ages. My oldest NY Bach is happier with about a 1/2 inch open, but everything else I keep slammed shut.

I play with my tuning slides slammed all the way in. The attachments slides are a different matter.

I like 440. Cant explain why but it feels right. Strange because I can't play in tune. Im mostly to high.

Leif

I like to have room for slide vibrato in all positions, which of course include position 1, so I adjust the tuning slide accordingly. This varies with the trombone; on my current one, the slide stays pushed in all the way.

On my bass trombone and euphonium my main slide is about 80% pulled out. On my Tenor Trombone the main slide is pulled out about an inch. On my bass I’ve tried different leadpipe and mouthpiece combinations with little variation in result.

I bought an almost new YBL 421G from Quinn. I could not pull the tuning slide out far enough to be in tune so I returned it. When I got my 1963 Conn 72H I only have to pull it about 3/4". Not sure what was going on with the Yamaha?

Interestingly I have come upon my first trombone where I need the tuning slide all the way in, and still have to work on my embouchure as it still tends a little flat (Benge 165F with a Dennis Wick 5ABL). My King 2B, King 3BF and Conn Constellation all sit somewhere around a .5" pulled out depending on temperature.

Like someone else said I like to tune to leave room for vibrato in 1st position as well, but currently not able to do that with the Benge.

Should I look to a new mouthpiece combo for the large bore or just more face training to tighten the embouchure up?

Tim

bassboy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:43 am Not to mention, in addition to all this, plenty of groups tend to just play a little-to-very sharp. I've had it happen too often where I'm nearly right on, and I'm way lower than everyone else. If you're the only person in the room who's right, you're wrong!

You know what they say - it's better to be sharp than out of tune.

Savio wrote: ↑Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:42 pm I like 440. Cant explain why but it feels right. Strange because I can't play in tune. Im mostly to high.

Leif

Me too When I'm out of tune I'm never on the flat side.

/Tom

Interesting discussion : I recall the time when I was at the "Top O' My Game"and was moving air at a very good rate. I discovered that I had to pull ALL of my slides out about 2" to feel comfortable with the situation. I even went to the point of having inserts made to fill those voids that were created and to smooth out the bore so that there really weren't any "bumps" from the slide coupling to the end of the bell. It worked out to great advantage on my King 8B. Granted, there were short cylindrical sections where the inserts were positioned, but really not much more than would have been normally encountered. I ran across those inserts the other day and gave them another run. I don't think I'm at the "Top O' My Game" anymore !

On my two 70h's and my old Holton, their are all the way in. But my Conn 60 it's usually about one cm out. Strange? I had an old Bach 50h long time ago. That one was so flat I had to cut it a little bit. I also remember I had an Yamaha Eb tuba with 4 triggers. Had to pull it out 4-5 cm. It was an easy tuba to play in tune. I believe where the tuning slide is, depends on how the mouthpiece fits and what shape we are like 2bobone told.

Leif

Why not just pull out the main hand slide, instead of having the tuning slide 80% out? Lengthening the bell section does weird things to the rest of the horn.

At ATW, a vendor noted that I was playing with the tuning slide pushed in all the way and tried pulling it out while I was still testing it. When I explained to him that I played that way regardless of what the horn was, he said "wow that is old school". A lot of vintage horns we're made to be played in this old school fashion. 88Hs with springs, kings with room for slide vibrato and a B natural still available....and TIS horns that were way ahead of their time.

I play a 6h and my slide is usually 50% out.
On my trumpet it's usually 75%-80%.

Generally about 3/4" to 1" out on the 6H, and even then I play off the bumpers.

On my bass it's no more than 1/2" out, and again off the bumper.

I've started playing with the main tuning slide pushed in enough so that I can get a solid 7th position on my straight horns. Depending on the horn that's either all the way or nearly.

The F attachment I tune relatively but if my tuning Bb is roughly a thumb width out, I tune T1 F to be on the bumpers. makes T1 C slightly out or nearly in-line with open Bb, and I can still get a low T6 C with some lipping and arm. It doesn't sound great, but that's a me-issue not a horn-issue.

if that sounds familiar....it's cause I watched Harrison's videos on the subject and a lightbulb went off, so I tried it and realized I liked it.

The other thing I like about this method is I find it a lot easier to switch between horns if I've practiced tuning by ear rather than rigid position.

If you aren't "used to" a trombone yet, playing in tune can be challenging. What mouthpiece are you using?

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:07 pm I have not used my tuning slide on any horn since 1975. I got to spend a day with Kai Winding and one of the first things he did was push my tuning slide all the way in and said "Use your ears".

I did the same thing in about 1982. I will use a little tuning slide on the main horn when I play something with triggers. But I also use the tuning slides on the triggers go get them relatively in tune with where ever I choose to put the main tuning slide.

bimmerman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:51 pm I've started playing with the main tuning slide pushed in enough so that I can get a solid 7th position on my straight horns. Depending on the horn that's either all the way or nearly.

The F attachment I tune relatively but if my tuning Bb is roughly a thumb width out, I tune T1 F to be on the bumpers. makes T1 C slightly out or nearly in-line with open Bb, and I can still get a low T6 C with some lipping and arm. It doesn't sound great, but that's a me-issue not a horn-issue.

if that sounds familiar....it's cause I watched Harrison's videos on the subject and a lightbulb went off, so I tried it and realized I liked it.

The other thing I like about this method is I find it a lot easier to switch between horns if I've practiced tuning by ear rather than rigid position.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:11 pm If you aren't "used to" a trombone yet, playing in tune can be challenging. What mouthpiece are you using?

I went from the Yamaha 48 to a Bach 6 ½ AL.