Dream Trombones?

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Neo Bri
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by Neo Bri » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:36 am

11561man wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:40 am
I'd say a pre-Mt. Vernon era Bach 16. Solid and classy. :good:
Evidently people and play these, but I never could. I have tried several times. Cool to hear someone who considers that a dream horn.

For me, I don't really have one...but maybe something based around a Bach 36-42.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by Mv2541 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:32 pm

ericcheng2005 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:15 pm
ZiggyAzalea wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:55 pm
If you had an unlimited budget, what 1 trombone would you buy?

All bets are off, whether it's a vintage jazz horn or a top of the line concert trombone, if you could have any one tenor or bass, which would you choose?
Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe
2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe
3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom
4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell
5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto
6. Slokar alto
7. Shires alto- gold brass bell
That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by mrdeacon » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:41 pm

What does XL even mean in Shires speak?
Rath R1 2000s, Elliott XT
Bach 42B 1977, Elliott XT
Holton TR185 1968, Elliott XB
Holton 169 1960s, Elliott LB
Minick Bass Trombone 1980s, Elliott LB
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by HGrobot » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:49 pm

mrdeacon wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:41 pm
What does XL even mean in Shires speak?
I believe it’s part of XLW, for extra light weight. It’s not on their site, but I have some recollection of it being mentioned in a conversation I had with a local rep for Eastman a year or two ago.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by ericcheng2005 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:53 pm

Mv2541 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:32 pm
ericcheng2005 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:15 pm


Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe
2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe
3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom
4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell
5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto
6. Slokar alto
7. Shires alto- gold brass bell
That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.
I looked at the Shires website and blended everything I liked about Conn and Bach bells into one bell, and this was the result haha. It's a monstrous model number compared to a 7YLW or 2RVE, but its one of those "just to see what would happen" things lol. Especially with that dual alloy red brass stem, yellow brass flare, I doubt they've made any of those.

My teacher plays a Slokar, and he recommended one if I ever get an alto, and the Shires alto just looks cool and I've heard favorable reviews of it here. :)
Last edited by ericcheng2005 on Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by ericcheng2005 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:56 pm

HGrobot wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:49 pm
mrdeacon wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:41 pm
What does XL even mean in Shires speak?
I believe it’s part of XLW, for extra light weight. It’s not on their site, but I have some recollection of it being mentioned in a conversation I had with a local rep for Eastman a year or two ago.
Yes, it does mean extra light weight. There's been a couple of them on Trombone Marketplace and the classifieds over here, I think.
Principal Trombone, Youth Philharmonic Orchestra of North Carolina

Edwards T396-A "Alessi"- Bach 5GB
Conn TB711F- Bach 5GB
King marching trombone- Schilke 52E2
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by ericcheng2005 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:58 pm

Mv2541 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:32 pm
ericcheng2005 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:15 pm


Hmmmmm here are the ones I'd consider:

1. Shires large bore- TII7RYXLWT7 bell, TW47 slide, TDS tuning slide, Twin Valve, 2SSS leadpipe
2. Rath R4F- red brass bell, red brass TS, nickel slide, 5B bronze leadpipe
3. Thein Belcanto, Universal II, Custom
4. Edwards B502I- yellow brass bell
5. Jurgen Voigt J-711 "Fire Metal" alto
6. Slokar alto
7. Shires alto- gold brass bell
That's a super specific Shires bell, and I doubt they made very many (or even one)! Where'd you get the idea for that? I have something very close- a TI 7RXLWT8, and it is quite difficult to make work. It's actually the only Shires part I have left, but I'm thinking maybe one day I'll mount it on an 88 of some flavor. Also I had a Rath setup very close to that but with a bronze slide and yellow TS. Maybe we have similar taste, except I don't really care for the Slokar/Shires altos.
And maybe we do have similar taste, red brass FTW! I only put the Theins for the flexing factor haha
Principal Trombone, Youth Philharmonic Orchestra of North Carolina

Edwards T396-A "Alessi"- Bach 5GB
Conn TB711F- Bach 5GB
King marching trombone- Schilke 52E2
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by ihomi » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:13 am

Hello Folks,
I like Yahama Trombone YSL-354 Trombone.
plz try it once.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by ericcheng2005 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:16 am

ihomi wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:13 am
Hello Folks,
I like Yahama Trombone YSL-354 Trombone.
plz try it once.
Yahama? Never heard of it.
Principal Trombone, Youth Philharmonic Orchestra of North Carolina

Edwards T396-A "Alessi"- Bach 5GB
Conn TB711F- Bach 5GB
King marching trombone- Schilke 52E2
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by ihomi » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:22 am

ericcheng2005 wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:16 am
ihomi wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:13 am
Hello Folks,
I like Yahama Trombone YSL-354 Trombone.
plz try it once.
Yahama? Never heard of it.
Then, King 2B & Jupiter JTB700 is also a better options.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by Elow » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:28 am

ihomi wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:22 am
ericcheng2005 wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:16 am


Yahama? Never heard of it.
Then, King 2B & Jupiter JTB700 is also a better options.
If youll sell me a 2B for the price of a yamaha 354 ill take it!
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by deanmccarty » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:00 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:59 pm
I would probably get a Rath R3 with the nickel bell, a Rotax valve and the straight neckpipe. Although it would probably still just be a nice runner up to the '68 Elkhart 88h I already have.
I have this setup with a red brass tuning slide, and yellow hand slide... it is a SWEET horn. I hardly ever switch to the straight neck pipe... I also have a similar setup on my R4 (but with a red hand slide and a Hagmann valve). Both are fantastic... but if I had to choose, the R3 is just a stellar instrument.
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Rath R9D - Schilke-Reichenbach, Ferguson-L
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by deanmccarty » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:14 pm

I have been lucky to be in the position to have just about every “dream” instrument that I want. I even purchased a Willson 2900 euphonium. That is the euphonium that I had always wanted. The only instrument that eludes me right now is a Rath R90 contrabass trombone. I would love to have one, but I’m not sure that the price tag warrants the limited paid use that I would give it.
Dean McCarty
Houston area freelancer

“Have a good time... all the time.” - Viv Savage, Spinal Tap :cool:

Rath R9D - Schilke-Reichenbach, Ferguson-L
Rath R4F - Elliott 100G/G8
Rath R3F - Elliott MT100G/D4
Rath R10 - Elliott 95G/B2
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by hyperbolica » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:51 pm

deanmccarty wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:00 pm
I also have a similar setup on my R4 (but with a red hand slide and a Hagmann valve). Both are fantastic... but if I had to choose, the R3 is just a stellar instrument.
How big a difference is there between the R4 and the R3? Can you compare either or both to an 88h Elkhart?
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by Finetales » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:45 pm

deanmccarty wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:14 pm
I have been lucky to be in the position to have just about every “dream” instrument that I want. I even purchased a Willson 2900 euphonium. That is the euphonium that I had always wanted.
A Willson euph is my dream euph as well. The sound is something else.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by Hobart » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:54 pm

If we're talking euphs, I want one of the compensating ones that's front-action. I'd even settle for one of the normal American styled ones with four valves, for some reason I like their timbre a little better.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by pmgtrombone » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:26 pm

Most of my trombones are pretty dreamy to some degree or another ... I suppose there is a slot for that Minick BBb/FF/DD double valve BBb contra on Brass Ark -- SO MUCH TUBING!!!
BAC Custom Small Bore Tenor
King 3B+ SS
Shires Master Series G Tenor
M&W 322-T TIS Tenor
Shires Inline Trubore Bass
(Original) Greenhoe TIS Inline Bass
'73 Conn 62H TIS Bass
Alexander F Contrabass
Alexander 156 F Tuba
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by RustBeltBass » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:39 pm

I have been an Edwards Artist for years now and still believe this to be the instrument maker’s products allow for me to get the most out of trombone playing, by far.


If I could choose a horn that is not an Edwards however, I would love to own an old Elkhart 62H that is in GOOD condition with usable valves, ideally with the triggers adjusted from the thumb-thumb set up. I once had the chance to try one (Minnick improves) and it was amazing.
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by deanmccarty » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:59 am

hyperbolica wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:51 pm
How big a difference is there between the R4 and the R3? Can you compare either or both to an 88h Elkhart?
The best way to describe the differences between these two in words... well... the R3 is extremely light and nimble in sound. I don’t want you to think bright... just a lighter sound than the R4. Paired with the correct mouthpiece, the R3 makes for a perfect 1st trombone in a wind band setting, or in an orchestra that isn’t playing anything heavy. Perfect Mozart instrument. It is a great chamber instrument... or solo instrument (depending on the literature).

The R4 is a traditional large bore tenor that work wonderfully in any large ensemble setting. In orchestral settings I am able to push massive amounts of air through it without it breaking up (unlike an 88H). Addressing your question directly... I would say that this instrument would fit in between a Conn 88H and a Bach 42 as far as quality of sound. It gives you the beautiful soloist is quality of an Elkhart Conn, but gives you the ability and power to play in an orchestral setting.

The setup on my R3 is a nickel bell, red tuning slide, yellow hand slide. For me that is perfect for salsa and other Latin music where I need the lightness of a small bore, but the power of a large bore. When I throw the f-attachment (Rotax) on, it adds a little more support to the sound, making it a superb small ensemble instrument.

The setup on my R4F is a nickel bell, red tuning slide, red hand slide, and a Hagmann valve with a heavy cap. This is a heavier instrument that works well for me in large ensembles. I have never had an issue with the sound breaking up. This was actually my first Rath instrument. I was a Shires guy before... at ITF year after year Mick would remember me... he finally convinced me to at least try one of his instruments out. On my Shires instruments I was very pleased with my bass and small tenor setups... but for some reason, I just could never find a large tenor that worked for me. I tried different combinations on the Shires... and the went to different manufacturers... I finally decided that size just didn’t work for me... I would play it, but I was never satisfied.

Well... when I finally decided to try out Mick’s .547 tenor, I went in with what I thought I would like. I’m a traditional rotor guy... Thayer valves just don’t get along with me... I had never tried a Hagmann valve, but I had tried other oversized valves before with mediocre results. So... I went in wanting a horn with a rose bell, Rotax valve, and a nickel slide. I’m not going to lie... I hated the instrument. But, I gave Mick a fair shot... he asked what exactly I was looking for out of a large tenor... he did some switching around a few times... I was set on the Rotax valve, so he didn’t change that... he finally went to the nickel bell, red tuning slide, and red hand slide, and Rotax valve. I played that... and it was ok... but still couldn’t push the sound I had in my head, but it was closer than anything I had ever played... but not good enough. I told him I was going to just stay with what I had... and he said “just one more switch... I promise”. He went and put the Hagmann valve on with a heavy cap... same setup except that... and OH MY! There it was... finally.

I have never had anyone put the time in to “me” like Mick had... he treated me as if I was Conrad Herwig... I’m just a normal guy who plays in the studio and regionally... I had worked with Steve Shires before and Christan Griego and they were both selling their horns, but were not at all invested like Mick. Mike Corrigan and I had a good relationship, but his product is different when it comes to large bore instruments... all that aside... Steve and Christan make great horns... Mick REALLY stands behind his product in a personal way. He went out of his way to ask what I was looking for, and knew his product. For the first time in my life I found a large bore tenor that truly worked for me. I cannot say enough about his customer service... and his product matches right up to it.

Now, everything that I play is Rath. As for which one plays more like an Elkhart Conn... I would go with an R3F with a nickel bell, red tuning slide, and red hand slide... as for attachment... the Hagmann will give the instrument more stability, but the Rotax will give you a lighter sound. I would try both... there WILL be a difference in sound and feel.
Last edited by deanmccarty on Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dean McCarty
Houston area freelancer

“Have a good time... all the time.” - Viv Savage, Spinal Tap :cool:

Rath R9D - Schilke-Reichenbach, Ferguson-L
Rath R4F - Elliott 100G/G8
Rath R3F - Elliott MT100G/D4
Rath R10 - Elliott 95G/B2
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Re: Dream Trombones?

Post by hyperbolica » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:20 am

@DeanMcCarty,

Thanks for that. I've played an R3, and really loved it. I wasn't ready at that time to put money down. It would be nice to have a nice horn like that. Right now I'm mainly playing 79h. I tried a Shires with the same setup, but it just didn't do it for me - too heavy playing.

Thanks for the setup tips. I might not have guessed all the red brass. I do like Hagmanns, but I like the lighter sound and simpler mechanics more, so I'd probably go Rotax as well. If you hear of an available used setup, raise a flag. Thanks again.
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